PilotEdge Forums

I'd like to make sure I understand something correctly (I'm sure this was covered in one of the instrument workshops earlier this year, but I just can't remember the details).

When making a non-precision approach to a non-towered field under VFR conditions there is no protection from other airplanes landing at or departing from that airport, right? Once the field is in sight, you're effectively back to VFR rules (even if you haven't cancelled IFR yet), and are expected to make normal CTAF position reports, and fly a standard 45-degree pattern entry followed by a standard landing pattern for the appropriate runway -- right?

I emphasized 'under VFR conditions' because if the weather is truly IFR there shouldn't be any airplanes out there that ATC doesn't have under their control, and if you're flying a circling approach down at minimums you're likely not flying a standard landing pattern. I'm more concerned about instrument approaches under VFR conditions where there is a very real possibility that other aircraft are in the vicinity.

-M.

At some point on the approach, you'll be allowed to change to advisory frequency. At that point, yes, it is your responsibility to communicate as appropriate for an uncontrolled field. As you noted, in VFR conditions there may or may not be other VFR traffic. ATC will probably note anyone they can see when handing you off.

One qualification here. If you do not cancel IFR prior to being handed off, ATC will not allow any other IFR traffic into or out of that airport until you're back in contact or you've cancelled.

OK, thanks -- as I thought. Now here's where it gets tricky for me:

Let's use the I-07 rating flight as an example -- it's the VOR/DME or GPS-B approach into Avalon airport. The final approach segment has you level at 2300' until RIGLI intersection, about 50 degrees off the runway heading. Because of the misalignment, the MDA is a circling minimum of 2220 feet. You were probably handed off to the CTAF frequency somewhere at or around RIGLI, which is just over 3 miles from the airport. The missed approach fix is only a mile from the airfield. Let's say you're not familiar with this airport and, even though you're in good VFR conditions, you don't see the airport until you're almost at the MAF. You're now at roughly 620 feet AGL, 400 feet below pattern altitude, and almost on top of the airport.

What are your CTAF communication points once ATC cleared your for the frequency change, and what do you do when you see finally the airport?

For that matter, what if you don't see the airport in time and have to go missed? The missed approach procedure calls for you to climb straight ahead to the SXC VOR -- which takes you right over the top of the airport and back up through the traffic pattern!

-M.

While it's not the exact answer to the question, this article will likely be helpful to others who are being introduced to IFR operations at non-towered fields: http://training.pilotedge.net/object/no ... tions.html (it's linked from the I7 rating, too).

Shooting an approach to actual minimums and the actual missed approach point when it's clear and a million at a busy non-towered airport is unlikely to be practical, especially if the approach you've selected conflicts with the runway that's most aligned with the current winds. Courtesy would dictate breaking off the approach early (rather than flying it to the MAP at the MDA) and starting the climb early on the missed to remain clear of the traffic pattern.

I think the premise of not seeing the field until you're on top of it in VMC is a tad unrealistic. I can't think of a reason that you would only see the field once you're on top of it in visual conditions. The real challenge is ensuring you're swapping from approach to the CTAF in a timely fashion to get a feel for what traffic is in the area.

What you absolutely cannot do is fly this solo in VMC and stay in the under hood the whole time. It would be better to monitor the CTAF on another radio from further out, or ask for an early freq change.

Regarding the calls you make, it depends on what operation you're conducting. Are you planning on going missed for training? Are you planning on landing? If you want to do the missed, you'd let people know that you'll be overflying the field and you'd see and avoid other traffic in the pattern. You should avoid radio references to fix names and instead use distances from the field as most VFR pilots won't have a clue where those fixes are.

In short, coordinate with other traffic, let them know what you'll be doing and fit in with the flow as best you can. Consider climbing early on the missed, especially for non-precision apps.

I was once in the pattern at a non-towered field with 3 in the pattern when a Cirrus called on a 4 mile straight in for the ILS. I believe he was going to be landing. One guy landed first, then the rest of us extended to allow the Cirrus to make his straight in. He was very appreciative. If you tell people what you're up to and what you'd like to do on the CTAF, it can work out pretty easily.

Keith Smith wrote:I think the premise of not seeing the field until you're on top of it in VMC is a tad unrealistic.

So do I. As you well know by now from all my crazy questions over the last couple of years, though, I love to explore system behavior at boundary conditions -- that's where it's often most interesting!

So one last thing about this specific approach -- let's say the field is in sight at RIGLI and you're listening on the CTAF frequency. If

a) the frequency is quiet, and ATC has not previously advised of any traffic in the area, would you be comfortable making a right base entry for Rwy 22?

b) radio traffic on the CTAF frequency indicates other planes in the vicinity, how would you enter the pattern from the vicinity of RIGLI?

Thanks!

-M.

a) Definitely. Runway 22 is right traffic, and circling SE of the field is unauthorized. There isn't really any other way to enter. You could fiddle a bit an do a downwind entry, but right base makes the most sense to me.
b) Depends. I would be in communication with the traffic (assuming they have radios) and would sequency myself in to right traffic somehow.

You're enroute on V21 at 4000' to SXC in IMC, when you realize you've lost comms.

Assuming your clearance limit is the Catalina airport, what do you do?

It seems to me that you should:

- Squawk 7600
- Proceed along V21 to SXC at 4000'
- Execute a course reversal after SXC, perhaps using the depicted missed approach hold as your template for the reversal
- Depart SXC on R-352 towards RIGLI, descending to 3400'
- Fly the rest of the approach normally

Anybody else have a better idea?

-M.

Mark Hargrove wrote:You're enroute on V21 at 4000' to SXC in IMC, when you realize you've lost comms.

Assuming your clearance limit is the Catalina airport, what do you do?

It seems to me that you should:

- Squawk 7600
- Proceed along V21 to SXC at 4000'
- Execute a course reversal after SXC, perhaps using the depicted missed approach hold as your template for the reversal
- Depart SXC on R-352 towards RIGLI, descending to 3400'
- Fly the rest of the approach normally

Anybody else have a better idea?

-M.

For the "course reversal" after SXC, I would make a standard-rate right turn to intercept SXC R-352. Yes, that's a pretty extreme turn (150° by my calculations) but it should be safe at 4,000 feet. If it were not, there would be a note on the chart saying, "Procedure NA for arrivals on V21 southwest bound". I would not begin any descent to 3400 until I was established on the radial.

Another option is to shoot the VOR or GPS A approach, for which SXC is an initial approach fix. The minimums are higher, but in my experience, Catalina is either VFR conditions or VV001 and 1/4 SM visibility. Maybe one or two days in the history of Catalina airport has the weather ever been below the VOR-A minimums but still above the VOR-B minimums.

Back to a question from earlier in this thread for a moment:

If we're flying the VOR/DME-B approach in VMC, wouldn't it be prudent to only descend to 3100' inbound from the procedure turn, rather than 2300' as permitted by the approach plate? (it does, after all, say at or above 2300 at RIGLI). If we know the airport is VFR, and we know we should overfly the pattern (which should be at about 2600') by 500', then why descend lower than 3100' during the inbound leg of the approach?

Following this theory, I'd overfly the field, make a 30-ish degree right turn to extend 2-3 miles from the airport (the shoreline might be a good visual reference point; it's about 3 miles from the airport), then make descending right turn down to pattern altitude, rolling out on a 45-deg pattern entry heading.

Does this make sense?

-M.