PilotEdge Forums

Hi all,

I flew my second PE flight tonight, departing March to Santa Monica. Here's the flight path I ended up flying: KRIV to KSMO.

This was my first time planning a flight near/through a Bravo (in real life I'm a pre-solo student pilot), and I made some bad assumptions that the SoCal approach controller thankfully helped me resolve. I've got a couple questions that might help me avoid making similar mistakes in the future, and I'd love some feedback.

My plan was to fly at 4500' from March direct to the Paradise VOR and then direct to Santa Monica when I started receiving the SMO VOR, entering the Bravo at the 100/040 shelf and transitioning across to SMO. I had flight following for the trip, and I wanted to stay ahead of the game, so around Corona I asked SoCal Approach if he would provide me with the Bravo clearance, or if I was going to have to call someone else for it (basically, I didn't know ahead of time who would issue a transition clearance). When he asked what transition I was looking for, I said direct to SMO and he told me that I'd be flying right through the arrival path for LAX and we agreed that wasn't a good idea, so he suggested I swing north to go around the Bravo and then fly under the outer shelf the last few miles to Santa Monica, and that's what I ended up doing. The diversion was improvised on my part since I hadn't planned to need to go around.

The things I could use some help understanding are:

1) If I'm on one side of a Bravo and I want to get to the other side, or a point inside/under the Bravo some distance across from where I am, I assumed that I could request a clearance and would get vectors if the direct path wasn't safe. That assumption was apparently invalid for this flight. Is that always the case? Do I need to stick to the published transitions (such as the north-south VFR corridors published on the LA TAC and assume any other transition isn't going to happen? I live and fly right in between the Philadelphia and New York bravos, so this is something I'd really like to understand.

2) Was my flight plan (direct Paradise, direct Stanta Monica at 4500ft) inadvisable, and should I have planned it differently from the beginning?

3) Was there something I could have asked the controller in order to avoid the detour, or was what happened the best possible outcome given the circumstances?

4) When I landed at Santa Monica, the tower controller didn't give me taxi instructions right away (he was pretty busy, so this is understandable), so I just taxied to parking on my own. when I was about halfway there, he said something along the lines of "Cessna 1452U it looks like you taxied on your own". I wasn't sure if this was just an aknowledgment that I was leaving his control, or if it was a reminder that I should have announced I was clear and waited for instructions. I'm guessing it was the latter, but I'd like to know for sure. If the tower doesn't specifically give you instructions home, do you have to wait across the hold short line until you get something?

Thanks to all the controllers on the flight. It was an enjoyable experience!

--Jay

1) If I'm on one side of a Bravo and I want to get to the other side, or a point inside/under the Bravo some distance across from where I am, I assumed that I could request a clearance and would get vectors if the direct path wasn't safe. That assumption was apparently invalid for this flight. Is that always the case? Do I need to stick to the published transitions (such as the north-south VFR corridors published on the LA TAC and assume any other transition isn't going to happen? I live and fly right in between the Philadelphia and New York bravos, so this is something I'd really like to understand.

2) Was my flight plan (direct Paradise, direct Stanta Monica at 4500ft) inadvisable, and should I have planned it differently from the beginning?

3) Was there something I could have asked the controller in order to avoid the detour, or was what happened the best possible outcome given the circumstances?

4) When I landed at Santa Monica, the tower controller didn't give me taxi instructions right away (he was pretty busy, so this is understandable), so I just taxied to parking on my own. when I was about halfway there, he said something along the lines of "Cessna 1452U it looks like you taxied on your own". I wasn't sure if this was just an aknowledgment that I was leaving his control, or if it was a reminder that I should have announced I was clear and waited for instructions. I'm guessing it was the latter, but I'd like to know for sure. If the tower doesn't specifically give you instructions home, do you have to wait across the hold short line until you get something?

Hi Jay,

Let me use my inexperinece to elaborate and for the more experienced to join in and elaborate more.

1) For LAX, their are 5 uniques transitions specified to get to "the other side". The Coastal Route, Mini Route, Hollywood Route, Coliseum Route, and Special Route. These are pre-set routes with altitudes, VOR radials or ground referance, and cloud restictions all defined on the LAX Terminal Area Chart. PE has training materials that elaborate on all of them and how to find them. So if you approached the LAX Bravo Airspace from anywhere and need the shortest route to the other side, the controllers will ask you which transistion you would like to use. Without elaborating on each Bravo Transition that is FAA approved, you would select one and then fly the route as published. Again, PE has excellent training material to get you thru each one as long as you are comfortable talking to controllers, changing frequencies, flying specific VOR radials, and flying an altitiude assigned all without very much deviation.

2) Yes, you needed to know about Bravo Transition Airspace restrictions and approved transitions. Again, browse the PE training materials and sample videos.

3) If you didnt know anything about the transition corridors, then no, your only option would have been to follow ATC instruction to detour around the Bravo Airspace and under the appropriate airspace shelves or, they will hand you off to a facility that can give you clearance thru the airpspace. The only caveate are published transitions thru a Bravo airspace. It's your job to know they exist and how to fly them. PE controllers will be happy to point you in that direction if you have questions. But they wont "teach you' how to fly any published route.

4) Hmmm, sitting off the runway after landing seems like your flight is over. But thats not the case. On landing, if the Tower controller has not contacted you with a "turn right or left as soon as possible and taxi to parking on this frequecy. Your only option is to pull off the runway, contact the controller, and wait for a response, trying again if they dont get back to you. They are busy and one PE controller may be working many positions. So on PE and in the real world for that matter, wait, try contacting the tower controller again when you hear a break in his transmittions to other pilot. But NEVER just taxi because you were bored. They will get back to you even if you need to call again. Only when a tower controller upon landing sends you to ground, can you switch frequencies to get taxi to parking clearance.... Unless the tower controller tells you specifically to remain on his frequency and taxi to parking or where every you adivsed you wanted. The ONLY time you can change frewuncy on your own is after taxi to the active, having been cleared thru all runway crossings, can you change frequency from Ground to Tower. Upon landing, you stay with tower until they release you to parking or tell you to change to the Ground frequency. So as anxious as we may be to park and shut down, we have to wait until the tower gets back to us. (If radio communications have shut down for whatever reason, then and only then would you use the CTAF frequency for that airport to announce your taxi intentions.) but 99.99 percent of the times on PE, you will be given specific instructions after clearing the runway by the tower controller. Don't touch that dial or move your airplane until you hear from Tower.

Since KSMO lies so close to KLAX, coming fromt he north is no problem. But coming from any other direction will require a Bravo Transition Published rout to be requested.

Just a bit or trivia, PE controllers dont usually read VFR flight plans. So specific communications with the appproriate authority will be needed to get that information.

I've only got 30 secs here, but a clarification on VFR flight plans, r/w ATC doesn't see them, flat out. All filed flight plans are filed with Flight Service. IFR flight plans are then forwarded to the relevant facilities so the controllers will have them when you come through their airspace.

VFR flight plans are NOT forwarded from Flight Service to the ATC facilities. There was a time when we implemented this on PE but it resulted in people's flight plans being amended when they called for flight following, which affected the flight tracking capabilities on PEaware. So, we changed it back so that the flight plans are forwarded to ATC on our system, however, the controllers are trained to ignore them.

Do not file something in a VFR flight plan and then expect that ATC is aware of your intentions.

Hi Frank and Keith,

I hadn't filed a flight plan in the PE system, I just meant that was the route I had down on the paper in front of me. I didn't expect ATC to know what my intentions were. That's why I called approach well outside the Bravo to tell him my plan and coordinate what I thought was going to be a transition.

Regarding the transitions, I knew about the published VFR transitions, but I didn't know those were the only ways through the Bravo. Coming in from the northeast, none of those were particularly appropriate for the flight, so I ignored them and thought I might get a direct or vectored clearance west through the airspace. In hindsight, knowing that a transition wasn't going to be approved for my expected route, I could've gone south and come up the colliseum route.

Thanks for clearing things up for me. I'll have to give this another go.

Cheers.

Transitioning Brave airspace really depends on the airport. The LAX area is pretty crazy airspace. It is super busy and there are airports everywhere. In airspace like that I wouldn't expect to get an ad-hoc transition. The published transitions are the way to go or, as you discovered, just avoid the B. The biggest reason your transition didn't work is what the controller noted: you'd be flying directly through the approach path.

Contrast this with the Cincinnati Bravo. I recently did a flight something like this: SkyVector. I planned to drop down to 3500 as I approached the B and skirt just North of that little 3500 shelf. About 15 miles out from the B, the controller informed me "Cleared through the Bravo, if you need to". I didn't even ask. I still went down and around like I planned, but it was really nice to know that I could clip through there if I needed to. Different airspaces simply have different traffic requirements.

Here are my two cents on this. Unless there are known transitions (some often unpublished as I assume your transitions through PHL and NYC airspace are) through the bravo, you should generally expect that the approach controller serving the Class B won't have the time to hold your hand through a random section of the airspace. That's why they have all of the transitions and why the shelving of the bravo was designed in a particular way in the first place. Socal Approach at that stage would be pretty busy sequencing arrivals to 25L and 24R at LAX that a VFR special request would only slow down their quality of service for the folks that are paying to land at LAX.

If we're talking strictly VFR, I would have flown above the I-10 freeway and remained north of the LAX B and descended below the final shelf near SMO.

I recently flew with a couple of pilot friends through the SFO Bravo, and the PiC planned for a bay tour (which is dependent on a Bravo clearance) but still took the time to plan 2 alternate routes in case the airspace was jammed or if an emergency took place at the airport. You need to plan for these situations to avoid mid air confusion which could put others and yourself in danger.

As soon as you arrive at any airport, taxi off of the runway, be sure that your entire aircraft is past the hold markings but not entering the next taxiway and wait for the tower to switch you to ground or they will give you taxi instructions themselves. If they don't get back to you, remind them that you're clear of the runway and ask them for instructions. Do not, in any situation, assume you're allowed to taxi anywhere without ATC permission unless you're on a parking ramp. It's your job as the PiC to be safe and be sure that everyone knows what you're doing.

Is the link to the route you show in your original post the actual route you flew? What altitude were you flying and where were you when you asked for help with the Bravo?

Yep, that is the route I actually ended up flying. I did most of the flight at 4500ft, intentionally under the outermost shelves of the Bravo. I called just a little bit west of the Paradise VOR when I was just south of Chino to make sure I had enough time to comply with any request, or divert if necessary. The right turn was the result of the controller suggesting I veer north and come in under the outer shelf to hit Santa Monica. When I was just north of El Monte, I dropped to 2000ft to get under the Bravo. I had seen that possibility when doing my flight planning, but I would have preferred a Bravo transition rather than going underneath because of the 3500ft terrain/obstacle altitude in that quadrant of the TAC. I was unfamiliar with the area, and it was night so I would've preferred a higher altitude, hence the uninformed clearance request.