PilotEdge Forums

I've got a question for those controllers out there .

Been flying VFR a lot lately, mainly due to the lack of complex clearances required, the extra freedom navigating in flight, and the sheer abundance of good weather out there on the West Coast. Seriously... does it ever rain out there? Hardly a cloud in the sky, most days.

Anyhow, my FSE adventures have brought me in and out of KSAN a lot. Obviously it's surrounded by San Diego's Class B, as well as Miramar's. I usually call up to SoCal Approach and announce my attentions ten miles before the Class B airspace. I figure in the aircraft I'm flying (<150 knots), that should give ATC enough time to figure out what to do with me. I'll be told to stay clear of Class B airspace. Sometimes I'll be guided along as to the wishes of the controller ("Stay outside, head east around Miramar's B, and I'll get you in from there").

Today, knowing the wind was from the west, I followed the same path. Got down around that jog in the Class B airspace around Alpine, and just circled around, expecting clearance into the Class B. It didn't happen. Had to disconnect for a few due to a real world interruption (announced), then reconnected a few minutes later (announced again)... still no instructions from SoCal Approach. Some time later, the controller got on and finally asked my attentions. He was really polite about it, but I could hear the "Do you really enjoy flying in circles?! " in his voice. I gathered from the short conversation that he was expecting me to descend underneath the Class B shelf and make my way in. It's a shame that the FSE aircraft I was renting was owned by the system. Somebody could've made a fortune off of me.

I really wasn't expecting that. That B shelf sits at 4,800. The Class D around Gillespee and Montgomery top out at 2,400 and 2,900 respectively. Then you've got the San Diego Class B to the south, and Miramar's to the north. That's a box roughly seven miles wide, a whole lotta miles long, and a few thousand feet high. It's still a box. I hate boxes, especially if I'm gonna bust airspace when I bust that box. So my gut feeling is to avoid the box, knowing that I don't know how long it'll take for a clearance out of the box.

So what do y'all like to see? Should I fly into that box and expect a clearance into the B airspace soon? Hang around outside the lateral limits? Or something else entirely?

I guess if you're coming from ALPINE I'd exit the hills near Interstate 8, call SEE tower for the transition, and follow I8 down to the lower B shelf.... the section of interstate that looks straight west (well on the chart) I'd ask for a freq change and skirt the shelf and then call SAN tower for B entry and landing.

But honestly the best thing would be to just call socal approach on 124.35 as you exit the hills and get clearance into the B from there.... they'll ship to you SAN tower eventually.

I had flown from the north side, out of Skylark (up by Lake Elsinore). Called into SoCal approach about fifteen miles east northeast of Oceanside at 5,500', just inside that Mode C veil. ATC directed me to remain clear of the B, so I flew around to the east, all the way down to Alpine. Figured I was going to get clearance any time soon, but didn't want to rush the controller either.

It may sound oversimplified.. but just saying something like: "Cherokee 48J would like clearance into the Bravo" actually works many times in real life! (It also helps if they know where you want to go.)

The worst that can happen is they either vector you around a bit, or tell you to remain clear. You can also try to negotiate with something like: "What altitude would work best for you?"

Controllers aren't there to keep you out of their airspace. If they can work you in, they usually will.

- Gavin

Yup. My initial call to SoCal Approach mentioned I was "inbound for Lindbergh". I didn't explicitly ask for clearance into the Bravo, but assumed that was implied (especially when the controller comes back with "remain clear of the Bravo airspace".

Thinking it over, I believe the controller was assuming I'd descend and proceed inbound to KSAN under the shelf, wondering why it is that I'm out in the boondocks flying circles. I'm waiting for the controller to give me clearance. So what's the polite way to resolve that? Anything I think up makes me sound like an impatient VFR pilot knocking on the door of the Bravo airspace, demanding entry. I don't want to be that guy

I've flown VFR into a couple of Class B airports several times and each time my entry was coordinated by the TRACON. If the TRACON can accept you into their airspace, they will most likely clear you into the Bravo then ship you off to Local. If unable, then to remain clear is a way to keep you out of the way of other IFR traffic and you should be handed off to Local with enough time to coordinate and satisfy your Bravo entry requirements.

The key element that you did, which is a huge takeaway I suppose, is remain clear of Bravo airspace until you explicitly hear a clearance to enter. Obviously you know, but it's a good reminder that Bravo airspace requires a clearance and not just the establishment of two way communications. In the event the clearance never happens, remain clear and question ATC. As far as whether or not there is polite way, I think any way in which you notify the controller that you require entry is fine. Generally speaking, TRACON will prior coordinate with Local in some way, shape, or form, so even if they do not give you the clearance, Local will anticipate the need and give it to you on contact.

Just please don't be like the kid who, not satisfied by the resolution of their requests, decided to force their entry into the NY Class Bravo by landing on Rockaway Beach; after all: "What's the big deal? It happens all the time in Flying Wild Alaska."

My personal preference for KSAN is to ride the coast just under the shelves. The route I use keeps me clear of any of the non-surface bravos, allowing me to simply call KSAN tower once I get close to the Mission Bay VOR. There have been a few times when it's been necessary to hold near MZB pending clearance, and a couple times where I've gotten extended downwinds on 27, but this route has been the one that has served me best into KSAN. I don't know how "correct" this is, but I did learn this move from Keith so there's always that .

Oooohhhhh... I like that!

My usual method for San Diego-area VFR inbounds is to send you along the shoreline until you get to Crystal Pier, and then have you go east-bound from there. Those familiar with MZB will be sent there. On that note it's always extremely helpful when pilots know where the local VFR reporting points are.

Inbound to that area from the NE, by the way, is a challenge due to the operations at Miramar (NKS) MCAS. We have drones that fly in the Miramar Class B surface area all day long, so clearing you into that area wouldn't be a great idea because we can't provide separation there. Therefore if a pilot wants to get around it, I'll provide a Class B clearance with a vector around the NKX surface area. I ask inbounds to SAN to proceed to the Sweetwater Reservoir -- the big lake-like thing on the final for SAN RWY 27. That's a perfect setup for a sequence should you need to be put into one as you get to SAN.

Anyone else without the VFR reporting points just gets a vector, or is asked to remain outside of the airspace.