PilotEdge Forums

Hey guys,

So I happened to fly into KPSP at about midnight last night (CST) and was surprised to get a response to my "traffic" call from "tower". Oops, glad I called!

No biggie but I thought that KPSP wasn't covered in the PE Area. Glad that it is! Then I have I new question...

The question I now have is WHY does PE show it as a "Class C" airspace? It isn't. It's a good ole Class D...with a "throwback" TRSA parked on top of it. That black outline and 10000 cap threw me for a (time) loop initially. I started looking for the TCA and ARSA's on the charts like I had in 1988.

So I read up a bit - I'm not sure why it's there. It looks like the FAA used the TRSA (which I don't think is a global standard in the alphabet airspace, right?) to give some extra protection for VFR flights. From my reading it's ENTIRELY optional - unlike a "real" Class C which of course just requires radio contact. On a previous VFR flight it spooked me and I just stayed out of it at 7500. General prudential rule

I'm all for ATC help, just curious what this animal is and why it's there. Appreciate the real world insights

Todd
N3298S

PS As an aside, I've been a bit perplexed about the Class C rules. all you need is for them to answer your call with your callsign and you are in. And presumably they can't tell you to stay out like B, or to exit it even, but if they DO tell you to do anything then you have to do it under the "Thou Shallt Obey ATC" general rule... So really, what is the difference between the C and B from a PRACTICAL point of view. In B, they can tell you to stay out. In Charlie, they cant tell you to stay out, but they can effectively do so but NOT acknowledging you...(scratches head..)

Todd, PE covers the entire Los Angeles ARTCC. The coverage map depicts the lateral bounds of the coverage area.

The PSP TRSA is marked as a Class C on the coverage map for simplicity sake.

PS As an aside, I've been a bit perplexed about the Class C rules. all you need is for them to answer your call with your callsign and you are in. And presumably they can't tell you to stay out like B, or to exit it even, but if they DO tell you to do anything then you have to do it under the "Thou Shallt Obey ATC" general rule... So really, what is the difference between the C and B from a PRACTICAL point of view. In B, they can tell you to stay out. In Charlie, they cant tell you to stay out, but they can effectively do so but NOT acknowledging you...(scratches head..)

I'm perplexed as to what prompted the assumption that they can't tell you to stay out of the Class C. "Remain outside of the Class Charlie airspace", or, "aircraft calling, standby" both have the same effect. Both are used regularly. You can be told to remain outside Delta airspace, too.

The differences between Class B and Class C from a practical standpoint are significant: 1) you need an explicit clearance to enter Class B, and 2) they have different VFR weather minimums.

To gain a better understanding of the types of VFR airspace, I'd encourage you to check out the very first workshop (starting at the bottom): http://pilotedge.net/workshop, it explains all of this and more.

Bravo VFR wx mins are much less stringent than other classes. ATC has control of and provides separation for all aircraft regardless of flight rules.

TRSA is the same as a Charlie minus the mandatory participation requirement and associated outer area. VFR are separated from IFR traffic but not from each other. VFR wx mins are standard. (The Class C outer area is Class E airspace that surrounds the charted Class C airspace to the extent of the approach control's lateral and vertical boundaries.)

TRSAs had the equipment (radar and radar displays) of a Class C but lacked the legal basis for establishing a Class C due to traffic count or otherwise back in the day.

You can be required to remain outside of B, C, and D airspace. C requires a transponder. B requires an explicit clearance to enter.

Keith.

Thanks for the resources. I am a licensed ppl and I'm piecing back together the gaps in my knowledge as I kick over rocks like this. Not many trsa s to worry about and a 5 mile radar area seems to be a big nothing to me so not if the greatest interest. I just wondered if local knowledge for why psp got the special treatment.

I look forward to reviewing the wx mins for c and b. D and e as I give myself the refresher ...c-152/3 etc etc

HR

Thanks for the details.

T

As a real world pilot who makes occasional trips into Bermuda Dunes, here is my take on the TRSA.

It is nothing more than a concentrated So-Cal Approach. I don't even view it as "like a Class C". I only contact them if my workload permits. When VFR and departing to the north I'll tune in and listen but I don't even bother calling up even though I am going right through their space.

I say it is not "like a class C" is because they do not work together with a given tower like a class c operator would. If you are approaching a class c airport, approach will tell you to contact tower at the appropriate time and tower is just who you talk to when you are about to land.
If approaching Palm Springs airport, the trsa would have to hand you off, and you can't enter the class D airspace until 2-way communication is made.

Treating the TRSA like a Class C is setting yourself up for trouble.

golfpilot wrote:I say it is not "like a class C" is because they do not work together with a given tower like a class c operator would. If you are approaching a class c airport, approach will tell you to contact tower at the appropriate time and tower is just who you talk to when you are about to land.
If approaching Palm Springs airport, the trsa would have to hand you off, and you can't enter the class D airspace until 2-way communication is made.

Treating the TRSA like a Class C is setting yourself up for trouble.

It's important to distinguish how TRSA towers are set up rather than to make a blanket statement such as "[TRSA approach controls] do not work together with a given tower like a class c [approach control] would."

At Saginaw (MBS) and Muskegon (MKG), which are both TRSA airports in Michigan, the approach control function is housed in the tower. When you talk to Saginaw Approach or Muskegon Approach, you have established two-way communication with the controlling agency for the Class D airspace. (If anyone reads this reply in 2016 or later, this may no longer be the case, as both facilities are currently undergoing consolidation reviews.) They work exactly like Class C airports; in fact, the tower will not allow you to land without talking to the approach control in most cases.

On the contrary, when you talk to SOCAL Approach for TRSA service at PSP, you have not established two-way communication with the controlling agency for the PSP Class D airspace -- Palm Springs Tower -- and thus you'd be correct that the pilot is responsible for establishing the two-way comms with the tower prior to entering the Class D there.

HRutila wrote:When you talk to Saginaw Approach or Muskegon Approach, you have established two-way communication with the controlling agency for the Class D airspace.

Thats interesting to know. How does an out of town pilot know that the voluntary communication with a traffic service count as 2 way communication with a contained Class D Tower?

I think I may be totally wrong in my thinking the more I search about the subject

The facility name is the key. Saginaw Approach / Saginaw Tower vs. SOCAL Approach / Palm Springs Tower.

The FAA really ought to address this in the AIM.

But if you're talking to SoCal approach near, say BUR, you don't have to call tower for a transition at EMT

You guys are saying that if you're speaking with SoCal enroute to Palm springs, you'd need to talk to tower before you enter D? Because I totally disagree. SoCal would coordinate with tower either via voice or nonverbal like strip or DBRITE so they know you're landing.