PilotEdge Forums

So consider this my NASA form
On a serious note, I'm just trying to get some feedback from my flight tonight (1/10/15 N7593S KCMA KSBA), as the controller tonight mentioned I had a deviation, and I wasn't quite clear on what I should have done differently (or did wrong), and as we all know, bouncing around in the clag right on climbout really isn't the place to be having a back and forth about who's right and wrong.

So maybe someone there can listen to the recording, check my track, whatever, and educate me on where I messed up..

I heard and read back heading 175 on dep, intercept VTU282R KWANG. I was told read back correct. on dep, I'm flying 175. tower comes on to hand me off. tells me i should've flown 275. I say I read back 175 and was not corrected. He says he should've listened more carefully. he then says fly hdg 275 for the intercept and hands me off to approach. up till this point, I had not intercepted.

Checking in with app, I'm told i have a deviation. I don't understand how. I say I've just been flying headings I was cleared (granted, we now know it was an incorrect heading, but it's what I read back. I won't go as far as to say it's what was said, but it is what I heard). You always hear the stories of the guy arguing with ATC on the radio, not wanting to be that guy, after my explanation gets rejected, I say fine, just tell me what you want me to do (doesn't matter who's right or wrong, I can't see where I'm going, and I don't want to bang into anything). I get chewed out a little more, and told to re-intercept the radial. and maybe this is where the confusion is from, as i never intercepted in the first place?

anyways, I'm on my merry way, a couple of less significant hiccups on the approach...which does raise another ?. on the ils, you don't intercept until atc clears you right? I was flown through it, but then atc can turn you around. sometimes, if I see the needle come alive and I havent been turned, I may call atc, ask if I can turn, but couldn't this time. Am I supposed to turn?

Anyways, would appreciate any feedback. This was actually a very educational flight for me. Felt real, and was actually getting a little flustered. but i just kept telling myself, fly the plane, focus on what comes next, vs dwelling on what's past with atc. its not as easy as you'd think

Thanks for the workout!

When flying an unfamiliar route, I think it's very important to have a chart at hand to have a look at where you're going relative to your departure airport, and also have some sense of what airspace is around you. Clearances can get garbled and miscopied -- and even read-backs don't always uncover the discrepancy between what you heard and what the controller said.

In this case, KSBA is pretty much due west of Camarillo aiport, so a 275 heading (or anything generally to the west) wouldn't surprise you at all -- you're practically pointed direcly at KWANG on a 275 heading. A departure heading of 175 to intercept VTU R-282, on the other hand, is (a) taking you AWAY from your KWANG (not totally crazy, but odd); (b) causing a nearly 90-degree intercept angle for the VTU radial (getting a bit more crazy); and (c) pointing you DIRECTLY at R-2519, which is continuously hot from surface to outer space -- and there is an excellent chance to bust this airspace if you overshoot the Ventura VOR just a little bit (completely crazy; a controller wouldn't issue a heading that did that).

You can go into the audio archives to listen to your clearance and read-back to see what was actually said/heard/read-back, but if I'd been given a 175 as my departure heading, I'd very definitely have asked for a confirmation before I took off, even if I heard and wrote down 175 and the controller didn't object during the readback.

I actually just listened to this recording.

You were given a heading of 175 which was a mistake by the controller. Normally departures from CMA get a 275 heading and I bet the tower controller marked that you were on a heading of 275.

That is what caused the confusion, I'll bring it up to the controller.

And it ends up I needed to listen to the departure recording as well.

Let's just say the departure controller went a bit too far on his correction to you, I'll be address that with him as well.

His comments regarding intercepting the radial are all incorrect. I don't know where he got that from.

Mark Hargrove wrote:When flying an unfamiliar route, I think it's very important to have a chart at hand to have a look at where you're going relative to your departure airport, and also have some sense of what airspace is around you. Clearances can get garbled and miscopied -- and even read-backs don't always uncover the discrepancy between what you heard and what the controller said.

In this case, KSBA is pretty much due west of Camarillo aiport, so a 275 heading (or anything generally to the west) wouldn't surprise you at all -- you're practically pointed direcly at KWANG on a 275 heading. A departure heading of 175 to intercept VTU R-282, on the other hand, is (a) taking you AWAY from your KWANG (not totally crazy, but odd); (b) causing a nearly 90-degree intercept angle for the VTU radial (getting a bit more crazy); and (c) pointing you DIRECTLY at R-2519, which is continuously hot from surface to outer space -- and there is an excellent chance to bust this airspace if you overshoot the Ventura VOR just a little bit (completely crazy; a controller wouldn't issue a heading that did that).

You can go into the audio archives to listen to your clearance and read-back to see what was actually said/heard/read-back, but if I'd been given a 175 as my departure heading, I'd very definitely have asked for a confirmation before I took off, even if I heard and wrote down 175 and the controller didn't object during the readback.

Mark I totally agree. I do cross check all clearances. sometimes they make sense, sometimes not. in fact on this same flight, i was given a heading on approach that took me away from the airport. i asked for confirmation and was told yes, fly that heading. a few minutes later I was told my second guessing was correct, and was given a different heading. in my mind, I'm thinking, well maybe it's for traffic, or time to descent, etc. however, other times, what i've thought was a logical clearance, was incorrect ("we hear what we expect").

one of the challenges of human communication is finding the balance b/w healthy deference and respectful challenge, and the stakes are even higher on ifr/imc flight. all it takes is one mistake. You're right we should't just accept every clearance blindly, but maybe second guessing every thing that doesn't make sense puts us behind and ties up the radio. that is after all, why we have readback?

Anyways, like I said, that's why I like PE. it's a great tool to practice and learn these things in a fairly realistic atmosphere. and I really don't mean to get any controller in trouble. I was just seeking to understand where I messed up. Sounds like there was a take away for both sides of the radio on this one
thanks!

I listened to some of that. I think you handled yourself very professionally.

*This* is why I love PE. I feel like this is a real example of real life human to human interaction with controllers. Since in real life everyone can make mistakes, the lesson behind handling this is great! Listening to the recording now for the lesson. Thanks to pilots and controllers for the lesson here...

Finished listening. Great 'real life' confusion there. I've listened to plenty of real life ATC recordings where this kind of exchange takes place with a genuine confusion in the controller background. The pilot (appeared) to follow the instructions as given but the controller to controller comms broke down without the pilot knowledge. My takeaway here is that the pilot was calm, flew the airplane, asked for clarification for current instructions and 'moved on'.

Great lesson here, totally work my monthly fee. Thanks all.