PilotEdge Forums

Hi guys, did my first flight last night and really enjoyed it even though nerves got the better of me a few times.

I have a couple of questions. First off - filing a flight plan. I simply hopped onto Simbrief which pushed out a FP for my KSFO-KLAS flight. I filed this but when checking in on delivery was told the route wasn't valid. The controller gallantly tried to give me the correct routing and SID but not expecting this I drew a large blank as none of the waypoints meant anything to me until I had a chance to go off and check all the charts and make sense of it. Remembering the SID he gave me I found another route that fitted the bill and that worked.

Now my understanding in the UK at least is that SIDs and STARs aren't part of the FP as they are dependent on runway use which may change during the validity of the FP. My confusion has arisen whilst planning for a second flight from KSNA-KLAS where for an A320 cruising at FL290 Flightaware gives a routing of MUSEL7 DAG KEPEC3, DAG being the end of the STAR and the first waypoint of the SID. If I simply filed 'DAG' would the delivery controller give me the SID and STAR based on that waypoint, or do I need to file an appropriate SID and STAR and expect him to change it during the clearance process if necessary? If I expect this to happen then at least I can gen up on the various departures and arrivals before first contact.

Secondly - once cleared for a STAR, am I right in thinking that you are then cleared to each subsequent altitude from the chart on that particular arrival? I made my initial descent and then asked for further descent once level, the controller informing me to follow the altitudes on the STAR. Would someone clarify the *exact* phraseology used in the controller clearance to descend on the STAR?

Thanks guys and great service last night.

Ben

benweston wrote:If I simply filed 'DAG' would the delivery controller give me the SID and STAR based on that waypoint, or do I need to file an appropriate SID and STAR and expect him to change it during the clearance process if necessary?

Secondly - once cleared for a STAR, am I right in thinking that you are then cleared to each subsequent altitude from the chart on that particular arrival?

Welcome to Pilotedge! For your first question, I have no idea about the UK, but in the US you file the SID and STAR as part of your flight plan, along with the corresponding transition (if applicable). Most SIDs in the US aren't runway specific - instead, they have different initial instructions for each specific runway. SIDs use the phraseology "thence..." and "..." to transition you from runway-specific to general instructions (that apply to all aircraft regardless of runway). After that would come transition-specific instructions. The I5 Rating (found on the PE homepage under the "Pilot Center" tab) covers SIDs and STARs (with an example of what you would file), while the I9 Rating covers Profile STARs. An example flight plan I would file would be "BOACH5.HEC.RIIVR2" (shhh.... Thats the one they give you for the I9 ). On the topic of altitudes, I'm not a controller by any means, so someone like Peter is going to have to correct me, but you should never descend via a STAR unless you've been told "descend via the [insert STAR name here]". The controller could just say "descend and maintain nine-thousand", in which case you don't care about the STAR's specified altitudes unless he/she states "descend via...". SIDs are given out in the clearance with the phrase "climb via SID", which means that you follow the restrictions on the SID. "Climb via SID except maintain [insert altitude here]" means climb with the SIDs limitations, but don't go higher than the specified altitude (you're capped at that altitude until given higher by ATC). Hope that helped, and hopefully I didn't mess anything up...

Edited for grammar.

benweston wrote:Hi guys, did my first flight last night and really enjoyed it even though nerves got the better of me a few times.

I have a couple of questions. First off - filing a flight plan. I simply hopped onto Simbrief which pushed out a FP for my KSFO-KLAS flight. I filed this but when checking in on delivery was told the route wasn't valid. The controller gallantly tried to give me the correct routing and SID but not expecting this I drew a large blank as none of the waypoints meant anything to me until I had a chance to go off and check all the charts and make sense of it. Remembering the SID he gave me I found another route that fitted the bill and that worked.

Now my understanding in the UK at least is that SIDs and STARs aren't part of the FP as they are dependent on runway use which may change during the validity of the FP. My confusion has arisen whilst planning for a second flight from KSNA-KLAS where for an A320 cruising at FL290 Flightaware gives a routing of MUSEL7 DAG KEPEC3, DAG being the end of the STAR and the first waypoint of the SID. If I simply filed 'DAG' would the delivery controller give me the SID and STAR based on that waypoint, or do I need to file an appropriate SID and STAR and expect him to change it during the clearance process if necessary? If I expect this to happen then at least I can gen up on the various departures and arrivals before first contact.

Yeah here in the US the SID/STAR's are filed within the FP. There are SID/STAR's that are dependent on the rwy in use and some that are independent. You just have to do some pre-flight planning to determine the active rwy and thus select the appropriate departure and arrival. For example, the MUSEL7 for KSNA is dependent on John Wayne operating westbound. Same with the LOOP7 out of KLAX. But SID's like the PORTE6 out of KSFO, MCCN3, SHEAD8, and BOACH5 out of KLAS are rwy independent. Same with STAR's. A STAR like the CLARR2 and KEPEC3 may say in the notes to expect downwind for 25L, but at least PE controllers will vector you for the appropriate rwy. But the STAR for KSFO is dependent if they are using 19 or 28.

It's a bit complicated, but once you do the preflight weather check it will makes things easier. I much prefer knowing what SID/STAR I am going to use before departing. Get the FMC setup and generally won't have to mess with it and risk screwing everything up mid-flight. It isn't fun rebuilding the FMC flight plan mid-flight( I had to do that after a controller gave me the wrong waypoint and didn't catch his mistake until after I changed my FMC).

Secondly - once cleared for a STAR, am I right in thinking that you are then cleared to each subsequent altitude from the chart on that particular arrival? I made my initial descent and then asked for further descent once level, the controller informing me to follow the altitudes on the STAR. Would someone clarify the *exact* phraseology used in the controller clearance to descend on the STAR?

Thanks guys and great service last night.

Ben

Generally the controllers will give you an altitude restriction to cross a waypoint( for example cross and maintain 13,000 ft at CLARR) which is generally the first restriction depicted on the STAR. After that either three things will happen. 1) The controller will tell you to descend via the STAR( "JBU727 descend via the KEPEC3 arrival"). 2). The controller will give you altitudes to descend to, but still wants you to follow the STAR's lateral guidance( the controller will only give you the altitudes, it is still expected you'll follow the STAR navigation wise). 3) Will vector you off the STAR and give you altitude's to descend to.

Thanks for the guidance gents, indeed here in the UK only the en route sections are included in the FP. Planning certainly needs a bit of thought as filing a FP which includes a SID that doesn't work with the runway in use can confuse things.

I too would like to have the SID/STAR and expected runways all to be squared away by the time I call for clearance, especially on short legs such as the ones within the PE coverage area when you're in a jet where you REALLY don't want to be sat at the gate trying to figure it all out. I can also see from the 'myflightroute.com' site the runway in use at either end which should make planning easier.

One quick question seemingly unrelated - just genning up on the possible arrivals into SF, anyone know why the East/West transitions are seemingly the wrong way round? From the pic the 'East' transition leading to RWY 28L/R is to the west of the airport when viewed from the chart, and vice versa the 'West' transition to RWY 19L/R, which is to the east of it. This bakes my noodle a little, any ideas?

benweston wrote:One quick question seemingly unrelated - just genning up on the possible arrivals into SF, anyone know why the East/West transitions are seemingly the wrong way round? From the pic the 'East' transition leading to RWY 28L/R is to the west of the airport when viewed from the chart, and vice versa the 'West' transition to RWY 19L/R, which is to the east of it. This bakes my noodle a little, any ideas?

From the narrative the WEST TRANSITION-RUNWAYS 28L/R is the eastern branch and the EAST TRANSITION-RUNWAYS 19L/R is the western branch.

The other replies have done a good job but I want to clarify a couple of points:

Generally the controllers will give you an altitude restriction to cross a waypoint( for example cross and maintain 13,000 ft at CLARR) which is generally the first restriction depicted on the STAR.

This isn't always correct. We can issue "descend via..." as the first instruction and disregard some arrival restrictions entirely (for example we don't always issue MISEN at FL240 which is the first restriction on the KEPEC arrival).

One quick question seemingly unrelated - just genning up on the possible arrivals into SF, anyone know why the East/West transitions are seemingly the wrong way round? From the pic the 'East' transition leading to RWY 28L/R is to the west of the airport when viewed from the chart, and vice versa the 'West' transition to RWY 19L/R, which is to the east of it. This bakes my noodle a little, any ideas?

While you have the transitions backwards I think your question still stands.

The 28L/R transition is called the West transition (even through it's east of the airport) because it indicates the airport is operating west for landings/departures.