Arriving into KHND

[Daniel Kofman]

Earlier today Las Vegas Approach told me "Cleared Visual Approach Runway 17R, enter right traffic (I thought the proper term was 'enter right downwind', right traffic only being used if my intent was to come back and fly the pattern), radar services terminated, contact Henderson Tower on 125.1."

What I have a question about is what's in bold: Why would my radar service be terminated if I was arriving at a Class D Airport during its hours of operation?

[Pieces]

Class D airports often do not have any sort of radar - they just look out the window and see you. The TRACON controller was no longer controlling you, tower didn't have radar so you were no longer under radar service.

As for the pattern entry instructions, he just wanted you flying a right hand pattern and it didn't particularly matter where you entered. Enter right downwind would mean you must enter the pattern on the downwind leg, right base the base leg, etc.

[Nelson L.]

Have always had a suspicion, thought I would mention it here. My understanding is that "radar services terminated" also relates to traffic separation, terrain avoidance, etc... services. Would that be correct? Is that the intention? I would assume that you would still be clear of traffic, especially seeing as you might soon be within the jurisdiction of another controller (not referring specifically to the OP here - sorry!), but I'd be interested to know. Maybe this is another one of those layman misconceptions, in which case, we can pretend like I never posted anything

[Marcus Becker]

What radar services do you need after entering the pattern for a visual approach?

[Daniel Kofman]

I guess I wouldn't need radar services for the approach itself.

So my understanding is if at a Class D, and the tower is non-radar, the TRACON controller in that case would terminate my radar service? But if the tower was radar certified, I would continue to be provided radar services, thus not being relayed "radar services terminated"?

Excuse me if I come off as one with many questions, but I like to learn since this a learning environment after all.

[tngarner]

So I flew out an back today for a meeting RW and payed close attention to the Approch controller.

When I got about 10 miles from my airport (Class D) he said "N1234 radar services terminated, keep your becon code and contact tower 125.90".

So in this case I keep the code I had from flight following and contact the tower and they give me how they want to come in. Since I know the tower guys I asked them (when there was a good long break) if they had radar. Apparently they do but it is a feed from the tracon.

It got a little busy so never got an opportunity to ask the next question. My guess however is when Approch tells me radar service terminated it is a way to notify me that they (the TRACON) is no longer watching me and now the tower is responsible for any traffic alerts ( which they are not but will not get into that can of worms).

On the flip side I was going to a non towered airport and Center told me Radar Service terminated squawk VFR which makes complete since. This means we are not watching you good luck don't hit anyone.

[Daniel Kofman]

Nice, tngarner! It's pretty cool that you took this upon yourself to ask my forum post to RW controllers!

Thanks for doing that by the way, and I think I understand now.

[tngarner]

No problem. We just opened a new tower and I was curious if they had radar with the upgrade so had a dual purpose.

[Peter Grey]

A little late to to game here (sorry), but here is how it works.

So my understanding is if at a Class D, and the tower is non-radar, the TRACON controller in that case would terminate my radar service? But if the tower was radar certified, I would continue to be provided radar services, thus not being relayed "radar services terminated"?

This isn't quite correct. The underlying issue is radar coverage. If there is radar coverage to the airport the TRACON controller can provide radar service all the way down to your landing (even though you are with tower), note the tower controller can also do this (if there is a proper radar as alluded to). However, the controller isn't required to (and therefore can radar service terminate you).

If there isn't radar coverage to the ground (think KGCN which is nowhere near a radar), then the controller must terminate radar service.

So a termination is never wrong, and in most cases keeping you on radar service is also not wrong. It really comes down to facility/controller preference assuming radar coverage isn't an issue (which at the TRACON level it normally isn't).

My understanding is that "radar services terminated" also relates to traffic separation, terrain avoidance, etc... services. Would that be correct? Is that the intention?

Basic radar service (what we are talking about here) never gives you traffic separation of any kind (the controller is not required to take control action to prevent a collision, only state the traffic alert). Controllers will give safety alerts for terrain under basic radar services. The intent of "radar services terminated" is that basic radar service (traffic/terrain advisories) are no longer being provided.

In Class D airspace the controller is only responsible to ensure runway separation, there is no airborne separation requirements.

This is different from Class C/B airspace where there are separation requirements, and different from IFR flights where there is separation in Class D airspace from other IFR aircraft.

I think that answers the outstanding questions, please let me know if you have any more.

[Daniel Kofman]

Thanks for the explanation, Peter. I understand now.