PilotEdge Forums

1.Did the V3 yesterday - got a pass - just - nearly messed it up right at the end.
The 2nd Bravo transit was the Hollywood Bowl route, 9500ft, as I came abeam the Queen Mary visual point, I asked to leave the Bravo by descent, which was approved maintaining VFR, once below the Bravo shelf (8000ft) I started a right turn direct to KTOA, believing that once below the Bravo I was no longer on the transition, so was on my own.
In hind sight, it was a poor decision from an airman-ship point of view, as maybe I was turning directly into traffic that SOCAL could have warned me about. The Controller advised me that I should have maintained the 140 track, but he wouldn't "ding" me on it as maybe he should have been clearer about it.
So notwithstanding it wasn't a great idea, just to increase my understanding of the airspace, even though I'm below the Bravo, I'm still considered to be on the transition until I'm outside the Bravo laterally as well as vertically?
If I had continued at 9500ft until laterally clear of the Bravo, would I still need permission to turn to KTOA, a good idea I've decided, but is it a legal requirement?

2.I'd like to do a bit more VFR work before moving on to the I ratings, a couple of more questions on the LAX Bravo transits:
If on the South bound mini-route, SMO transfer me to LAX tower, but due frequency congestion I can't get a transit, presumably I'd orbit just outside the Bravo, advise SMO of such, then switch back to LAX tower to get the transit when able?
Same again, but this time LAX tower have transferred me to Hawthorne, but I can't get a word in, would LAX tower be cool about me orbiting overhead their airport, doesn't sound like they would, but what are the options?

3. The Bravo's go upto 10,000ft, can I really swan about above LAX without talking to anyone as long as I've got a Mode C transponder, above 10 and below 18,000 ft?
Thanks
Eugene

3) yes

My (non-authoritative) thoughts:

1. I believe that even if operating VFR if a controller assigns you an altitude or heading you are to remain on that altitude/heading until told otherwise ("resume own navigation", "resume appropriate VFR altitude"). The exception is if the assigned altitude/heading would cause you to violate another rule such as the cloud separation requirements in VFR, in which case the onus is on you to inform ATC of such and they'll get you alternate instructions. AIM 3-2-3e4 and 5−5−6 seem relevant here. Note that generic departure instructions "depart southeast", "depart crosswind" aren't vectors and are advisory, once you're clear of the airspace do what you want.

2. The route is at 2500' and HHR's airspace extends up to 2500' inclusive. I think the letter of the law is that as soon as you leave the Bravo at 2500' without establishing two-way communication you'd be in violation of the Delta. I wouldn't believe authorization to fly the route would give you authorization to loiter in LAX's airspace just because you can't reach HHR tower. Unfortunately I think this is just an edge case, in this scenario the letter of the law would pretty much force you into one violation or another... but from a practical point of view if you're leaving the Bravo and really just can't get a word in to HHR tower for whatever reason, it seems the prudent thing to do would be just to initiate a climb as soon as you're clear of the Bravo. HHR's airspace only goes up to 2500' so as soon as you're at 2501' you're free and clear to meander along without talking to them. Now that leaves a few seconds where you'd technically be violating their airspace, but in this extreme case I don't think anyone would mind...

3. Absolutely.

Thanks for your reply, re:
"I believe that even if operating VFR if a controller assigns you an altitude or heading you are to remain on that altitude/heading until told otherwise "

Actually, that's what the Controller said, treat it as a radar heading, which sound eminently sensible. But in my search for a better understanding of the airspace - I still can't see how the restrictions applicable to the Hollywood Bowl transit can apply once outside the Bravo airspace. I checked out AIM 3-2-3e4 and 5−5−6, the former relates to flights within Bravo airspace, which I was no longer inside, and the latter relates to radar vectors, which weren't provided during the transit.
So in a court of law, could my dodgy lawyer get me off the hook?

Re "Now that leaves a few seconds where you'd technically be violating their airspace"
It seems strange to have a procedure that sets people up for a fall, should an everyday occurrence like frequency congestion occurs, albeit only fleeting. If the Hawthorne Delta was up to, but not including 2500ft all could become legal. Semantics I know, but in a court of law, semantics are everything.

Just out of curiosity, anyone know if LAX tower takes into account missed approaches before issuing transits, westerly missed approaches climb to 2000, and easterly ones 3000ft, could get quite exciting?

Thanks
Eugene

overload wrote:Just out of curiosity, anyone know if LAX tower takes into account missed approaches before issuing transits, westerly missed approaches climb to 2000, and easterly ones 3000ft, could get quite exciting?

Tower just amends the missed approach altitude to 2,000. Other options include making the VFR make a 180 or 360, or to make the VFR maintain visual separation from the missed approach aircraft. A third option is for the tower to look out the window and apply visual separation between the two aircraft -- 9/10 times that's probably going to be the easiest way out unless the aircraft going missed is heavy.

Eugene,

Regarding #3, you can also fly right over the top of most Air Force bases just 100ft above their Class B or Class C airspace, too. This is why it's important to have mastery of the types of airspace and the communications requirements for each. Give yourself a challenge, find some random spots on sectional charts (some near airports, some in the middle of nowhere) and then answer the question, "What type of airspace is this?" for a range of altitudes (surface, 500ft AGL, 1500ft AGL, 3000ft AGL, 11,000ft AGL).

overload wrote:
Just out of curiosity, anyone know if LAX tower takes into account missed approaches before issuing transits, westerly missed approaches climb to 2000, and easterly ones 3000ft, could get quite exciting?

Miniroute is also restricted to west traffic (25s/24s) so the go arounds at 3k will not be a factor.