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I'm at KSNA in a Bonanza 36 making left traffic for 20L. Also in the pattern is a c172 who has been there before me. He is ahead and has right of way.

Im struggling to keep speed around 90 kts on downwind and I'm still gaining on the c172. To make matters worse, the c172 is extending his downwind to about 1.5 miles past the threshold. He stays at pattern altitude on base and only decends when turning for a long final. Pilotedge is very busy and I end up doing a left 360 on base to maintain separation. On the next circuit I do a stop and go to also increase the separation. I still catch the guy.

At this point, what are my options? I know what I did was wrong... I flew my normal close in pattern and cut the c172 off. His downwind was so long, this wasn't an issue as I was on the ground and back in the air before he turned final. That's how long his downwinds are. But I know it's wrong (and the controller rightfully called me out on it.)

What could I have done differently to better handle this situation? I'm a RWL pilot whose spent ten years flying at uncontrolled airports. I'm now under a class B shelf and have a local class D a few mins from my house. I'm using Pilotedge to get used to the comms and flow of the airspace to help better guide my learning with my instructor. At an uncontrolled, I'd just ask the pilot if I could do it... Or just get out of the pattern and enter again. What is OK in the controlled airspace of C or D?

Can I ask to sidestep to 20R? I'm assuming that in the real world this is frowned upon with the commercial traffic on 20R. What if there was not another runway? Can I stay at TPA and just go past him on the upwind? My pilot senses are telling me that's a bad idea, but I don't honestly know.

What say you fellow Pilotedge users?

TJ

Tower should be providing separation in the pattern at KSNA. Did you let ATC know you were having trouble?

Things definitely get sticky when just one controller has so many planes to cover like this afternoon. The most information the AIM has on the subject basically says you shouldn't initiate your own 270s or 360s (Unexpected maneuvers) and that S-turns are at your discretion for seperation and the tower would expect you to. Of course in the real world a single tower's spacing would be more closely monitored and you'd be given those 360s or 270s if the S-turning you initiated aren't enough. It sounds like it got sorted out once the controller had some time to focus on the field but I know for sure he was busy during those patterns between I think an emergency A320 and someone else...(totally me blowing altitude restrictions in a new jet.. ) were being complicated too.

NyyDave wrote:Things definitely get sticky when just one controller has so many planes to cover like this afternoon. The most information the AIM has on the subject basically says you shouldn't initiate your own 270s or 360s (Unexpected maneuvers) and that S-turns are at your discretion for seperation and the tower would expect you to. Of course in the real world a single tower's spacing would be more closely monitored and you'd be given those 360s or 270s if the S-turning you initiated aren't enough. It sounds like it got sorted out once the controller had some time to focus on the field but I know for sure he was busy during those patterns between I think an emergency A320 and someone else...(totally me blowing altitude restrictions in a new jet.. ) were being complicated too.

I had just passed my v1 and another guy was on his v2. It was pretty hectic! But that's why I love Pilotedge. You get placed in some scenarios that you wouldn't normally be placed in because a controller is doing much more than just controlling.

Thanks for your input. I definitely didn't even think about s turning all along the downwind, which may have helped alleviate the issue.

Good luck with the new jet!

TJ

Pieces wrote:Tower should be providing separation in the pattern at KSNA. Did you let ATC know you were having trouble?

No. Tower didn't recognize it would be a problem until I turned base... And admittedly I turned base without the other final traffic in sight. after about 45 degrees through the base turn I went, ah, problem! As I was now staring at the traffic on final(yes, he was still east of me for landing 20L.) I immediately initiated the 360 to avoid the collision and at the same time tower called the traffic alert and suggested a 360.

I agree that tower should have provided better separation, but that's not what I'm looking for here. Realistically, what action can a pilot take should this scenario come up in the real world. How can I better handle this situation in the future?

Thanks,

TJ

Option over cutting the guy off, and should bring the inappropriate pattern to the controllers attention without just calling the guy out.

Ask for a short Approch to resolve spacing issues. Not an orthodox request but RW controllers (at least at my home field) love pilots that can do a short Approch as they can pop you in before fast traffic or something that is going to cause the wake turbulace clock ticking.

My best guess, and it is just that a guess....would be to get the controller involved before a non standard move is attempted.

"John Wayne Tower, N1234AB in the pattern having difficulty maintaining proper separation with traffic ahead please advise."

My bet is you would get a call to extend your downwind and that the other traffic would get a call to tighten up their pattern...or even the opposite where you could do a base to short final and the other guy gets an extended down wind.

Simply put...and I am only a sim pilot mind you, Pilotedge has taught me to involve the controller with your situation before making decisions on your own.

If this happens, in my experience the first thing to do is tell the tower that you are struggling to maintain separation from the traffic. They will advise you of what they want you to do. I have seen this happen on the network numerous times and especially at KSNA which is kind of a focus field for the PE ratings. With this situation I would expect the tower to tell the Cessna to tighten up their pattern and then tell you to continue on you downwind until the tower calls you base. This way they can make sure the Cessna is at least taking off again if not turning crosswind before getting you to turn base. They will give you good separation from the traffic but expect your downwind legs to be quite long. Also they will probably not give you the "option" and may mandate a touch and go or full stop anding.

Some good suggestions. I also would query the tower as soon as you notice the compression taking place. I would NOT do a 360 without telling the controller (unless a collision was imminent). Another option is to ask if you can fly a pattern outside of the slower traffic. This happens in real life too. Basically you'd fly about .5 to 1 mile outside of the slower traffic, and if you're flying faster it the spacing should be just perfect on final. If there are no departures and just a few in the pattern I try to be about 1 mile behind another guy who is doing a touch and go or low approach. If I know they are stop and go or full stop I might give a little more space.

Tower only needs 3000 ft (and airborne) between two touch and go aircraft (category I - basically single engine prop aircraft). Of course if you're a lot faster we can't have you gaining on a cessna either.

By the way, you making a decision to perform a stop and go shows really good awareness in the pattern... I do that from time to time too

Tower doesn't provide separation in the pattern. You should get a sequence, and after that point it's up to you how you want to separate yourself barring any 360s or cutoffs in the pattern.

In real life when this happens to me, after about the 3rd or 4th time I will start to let the controller know that I need to do a pattern on the other side of the runway, or the pilot in front needs to tighten up the pattern. The controller will tell the pilot to tighten it up.

In one of the most extreme cases I ever saw, I was number 5 behind a Cirrus who took another pilot and I outside the Class Delta on the downwind leg. We were 5 miles east of the field when the tower lost sight of us.