PilotEdge Forums

Hi,
I sometimes hear "(callsign) turn right heading 220 to join the localizer 20 right". Is this the same as "... Cleared ILS 20 right approach"?

John.

Negative. Sometimes the controller is too busy To issue the entire "PTAC" clearance. This gets you on the right direction and later the rest of the clearance will come.

You will hear that to set somebody up on a visual approach or maybe for a pilot that is at a point where the minimum vectoring altitude is higher than a controller likes but still at a place that the pilot can at least join a segment of the approach.

Like Kyle said, it does not mean "cleared" for an approach.

jcallum wrote:I sometimes hear "(callsign) turn right heading 220 to join the localizer 20 right". Is this the same as "... Cleared ILS 20 right approach"?

It might be worth noting that, "to join" is not authorization to intercept the localizer.
If the needle begins to move and you've not heard any further instructions, it's okay to query he controller.
"So Cal, N12345, should I intercept the localizer?"

jcallum wrote:Hi,
I sometimes hear "(callsign) turn right heading 220 to join the localizer 20 right". Is this the same as "... Cleared ILS 20 right approach"?

John.

"join the localizer" is a lateral instruction only. It is not an approach clearance. An approach clearance, not surprisingly, will contain the phrase "cleared....approach" (there will normally be more between the 'cleared' and 'approach', but those two words will ALWAYS be there...literally 100% of the time).

A controller should not say, "fly heading 220 TO join the localizer," that is technically a REASON for the vector rather than an instruction to actually join it. What you should hear is, "fly heading 220, join [or intercept] the localizer." Having said that, I can't think of any cases where an instructor would give you a heading with the intention of having you join the localizer and NOT want you to join the localizer, so I would immediately question it (don't bother waiting for the needle to move).

Sorry to jump in, but can I ask a related question... Often in RW flying I get "proceed direct XXXXX, join the approach". (where XXXXX is a GPS IAF that is a 90 degree feeder leg into the final approach course at an IF) After joining I almost always get approach clearance before reaching the IF or I ask for clearance, but if I didn't, would "join the approach" allow me to turn inbound on final as long as I stay at the current altitude?
Thanks,
Bruce

bruce, yep, follow the lateral track only.

Mudhen wrote:It might be worth noting that, "to join" is not authorization to intercept the localizer.
If the needle begins to move and you've not heard any further instructions, it's okay to query he controller.
"So Cal, N12345, should I intercept the localizer?"

Pilots, do NOT do this. If the quality assurance department at your local TRACON is very strict on its controllers' use of "intercept" vs. "join" when it comes to localizers, the controller will say "intercept." However, if you decide to ask the approach controller whether "join" means "intercept" -- which it does, of course -- and simultaneously blow through the localizer and cause confusion, you may possibly compromise safety, and initiate an FAA investigation.

The battle between "intercept" and "join" is an internal FAA disagreement that exists between facilities and controllers. The long-standing opinion is that "intercept" is the "proper" phraseology to be used in order to instruct aircraft to navigate laterally along a localizer signal. But anyone who flies in the NAS regularly knows that "join" is used equally as much, if not more than "join," in this context.

Because this forum has an audience whose safety depends on accurately communicated information, I feel an obligation as a regular contributor and CFI-I to point out that the instruction by Mudhen is factually inaccurate. You may legally intercept a localizer if instructed to "Join the localizer" or "Join the Runway [XX] localizer." There is definitely no case whatsoever where a "join" instruction would imply anything other than intercepting and tracking a localizer signal.

Thanks all. So if I understand it, if I get an instruction to "join the localizer" or "join the approach", this is a lateral only instruction and I can intercept the localizer, i.e turn onto the approach course, but cannot descend on the glideslope until I receive the approach clearance. Have I got it?

John.

I don't know if there are differences between the US and Canada in this regard (likely not) but I hear the "join the localizer" terminology a fair amount by CYYZ controllers.

John.