PilotEdge Forums

Departures:
1) When listening to the scanner in real life, or flying here in PE i rarely hear specific departure instruction for VFR departures. For example, I'll ask for a north bound departure and I'll get back "... cleared for take off, north departure approved." Does that mean that at my discretion I can proceed on a north bound heading ignoring a standard traffic pattern?

2) Regarding more specific instructions: ".... cleared for take off left downwind departure approved." Do i keep the downwind heading until i exit the area, or do i fly downwind until midfield and exit the area via the 45?


Entrys:
4) So far in PE I've been given entry instructions that are sort of opposite of what I expect. For example I could be set up for a straight in runway 12, but tower asked me to enter a left base runway 12. Or I would be assigned a left downwind entry for 30 when a right downwind would be more appropriate based on my position relative to the airport. I am curious as to why these counter intuitive instructions occur, and if I can request a different approach that is more appropriate for my location.

5) Also, at what point am I expected to be at pattern altitude when approaching an airport? Before entering the airspace?

6) Also, how long do I need to stay at pattern altitude after departure before beginning my climb to cruise altitude?


Thank you!

Based on my understanding ...

>>>1) When listening to the scanner in real life, or flying here in PE i rarely hear specific departure instruction for VFR departures. For example, I'll ask for a north bound departure and I'll get back "... cleared for take off, north departure approved." Does that mean that at my discretion I can proceed on a north bound heading ignoring a standard traffic pattern?

It would be more safe to head north once you hit pattern altitude for the departure leg, which would be about 800 feet AGL. Remember that other aircraft in the pattern have an expectation of where other aircraft will be based on the pattern altitude.

>>> 2) Regarding more specific instructions: ".... cleared for take off left downwind departure approved." Do i keep the downwind heading until i exit the area, or do i fly downwind until midfield and exit the area via the 45?

You would more likely keep the downwind leg until you were out of the pattern, not until you are out of the entire area (the Delta, for example). If they gave you a downwind departure it's because you asked for a VFR departure in that general direction. So if you depart on 27 with a request for an east departure, you can turn onto downwind and keep heading east on a climb, or once you're abeam the numbers or near where a base leg would be you could turn on course (if you were headed to heading 300 for example) also continuing your climb.

>>>4) So far in PE I've been given entry instructions that are sort of opposite of what I expect. For example I could be set up for a straight in runway 12, but tower asked me to enter a left base runway 12. Or I would be assigned a left downwind entry for 30 when a right downwind would be more appropriate based on my position relative to the airport. I am curious as to why these counter intuitive instructions occur, and if I can request a different approach that is more appropriate for my location.

Each field has a standard pattern, left or right. The far majority are "left traffic" meaning you will be making left-hand turns in the pattern. Any ATC direction you get into the pattern will be based on the set pattern direction for that field. Assume all fields are left traffic (left turns) unless there is an "RP" next to the field info on the sectional chart - that means it's right traffic. So a "RP 27" on the chart would mean right traffic / turns for runway 27.

>>> 5) Also, at what point am I expected to be at pattern altitude when approaching an airport? Before entering the airspace?

Before you enter the pattern. You should be at pattern altitude before you enter any leg, but you don't need to be at that altitude when you enter the airspace. The key thing to understand is that the traffic pattern has a set altitude and direction so all other pilots can anticipate the altitude and direction of flight of other aircraft in the pattern (whether they have a radio or not).

6) Also, how long do I need to stay at pattern altitude after departure before beginning my climb to cruise altitude?

And for question 6, re: how long to stay at pattern altitude on departure - you don't. You can climb throughout, as any other aircraft landing will then be below you.

I would like to add to BFGs response to #4:

__ keep in mind that ATC can always amend the standard pattern direction.

__ another possible reason why you aren't getting the most direct entry into the pattern could be that you have given ATC a bad position report. KBFL for example: if you told the tower that you are west of the field but you are really more SSW, they will likely give you "enter left downwind runway 30L."... but if you told them you were more south (south south west), you would be given a "enter left base runway 30L".

__ with the above point, keep in mind that ATC has the big picture plan, there may be a reason that they are given you a bit of a longer route to enter the pattern in order to sequence you in with other traffic in the area.

__Finally- if you feel that ATC has no reason to give you ANY instruction that doesn't make sense, feel free to question them about it... "BFL tower, we will enter left downwind as instructed but would it be possible to get left base to speed things up a bit?".... "N123AB, roger- enter left base runway 30L. I thought you said you were west of the field".
Or:
""N123AB, negative. Unable, as I have a Congo line of arrivals from the southeast and a few departures to get out of here prior to your arrival".

All in all... if the controller is busy... I would just do what they said... adds about 3-5min to your flight and they might have a good reason.

And one more amendment: there's a difference between how you fly the pattern at a towered vs. non-towered field. At a towered field the tower ultimately has say and you go where they tell you, as they know where other aircraft are and provide separation. Which is why it would be no problem to depart a left-traffic field but make a right hand turn after departure if they approved you on course. At a NON-towered field it's up to the pilots to ensure they don't bump into each other, so it's more important that everyone stick to the book for how the pattern is flown, entry, exit, etc. In the real world there may very well be an airplane in the pattern that either has no radio or is not using them, so safety is based on everyone being where everyone else would expect to see them.

BFG wrote: At a towered field the tower ultimately has say and you go where they tell you, as they know where other aircraft are and provide separation..

Well.... in a sence - yes.... but as far as what that tower is doing is dependent on a few variables. Mainly the class of airspace.

Delta for example: the tower sequences you, they don't provide "separation".

Kyle.Sanders wrote:

BFG wrote: At a towered field the tower ultimately has say and you go where they tell you, as they know where other aircraft are and provide separation..

Well.... in a sence - yes.... but as far as what that tower is doing is dependent on a few variables. Mainly the class of airspace.

Delta for example: the tower sequences you, they don't provide "separation".

Right.

The AIM section on traffic pattern operations contains nearly all the answers to these questions. I don't have time to go through each question one by one, but if you read that section, it will provide a lot of insight on these matters.

HRutila wrote:The AIM section on traffic pattern operations contains nearly all the answers to these questions. I don't have time to go through each question one by one, but if you read that section, it will provide a lot of insight on these matters.

Here you go: http://tfmlearning.fly.faa.gov/publicat ... m0403.html