CAT6 and MOAs

[wesyin]

I was recently doing my CAT6, where the direct route from KBFL to KMHV will go through two MOAs (the Bakersfield MOA and Isabella MOA, if I recall correctly). Shortly after departing KBFL, I asked over the radio whether the "nearby MOAs" are active? The controller was extremely busy and replied the "Restricted area(s) are active." I appreciate the answer but I suspect she might be referring to the restricted area to the east of KMHV, instead of the MOAs. Honestly, I wasn't confident that I used the right words in my question, so I could be me who is unclear. I would want to ask her to clarify about the MOAs, instead of the restricted areas, but she was super busy. I ended up replying "avoid the restricted areas" and work out a new route and its altitudes. It was so intense! In retrospect, I should've asked about the MOAs before takeoff!

If you wonder, I ended up flying further southeast to avoid the MOAs laterally, and then fly north below 1500 AGL to avoid the Isabella MOA vertically so that I could land at KMHV. (It is also interesting to find KMHV has no ATIS just 4 miles south of it. I should've done the ground homework a little better.)

I watched Keith's Youtube tutorials and searched through the forums. I know that VFR is allowed to enter MOAs without asking but it is wise to check with the ATC. Here, I really wonder how the folks here take their CAT6. Do they ask about the MOAs and prepare for a MOA-avoiding route just in case? The CAT6 webpage mentions MOAs but not in the ATC transcript. It left me wonder if I have VFR flight following (with the Bakersfield App) I should assume I can enter the nearby MOAs unless I am told not to.

[Keith Smith]

ATC cannot tell VFR aircraft to remain clear of a MOA. You can ask for their status in the real world and then make a decision accordingly but they cannot tell you not to fly through it. I wouldn't attempt to ask a ground controller about MOA status, I'm not sure they'd have access to that info in the real world.

[wesyin]

ATC cannot tell VFR aircraft to remain clear of a MOA. You can ask for their status in the real world and then make a decision accordingly but they cannot tell you not to fly through it. I wouldn't attempt to ask a ground controller about MOA status, I'm not sure they'd have access to that info in the real world.

Thanks, Keith! That's very helpful. Based on the lesson learned, in the RW, I will call the listed MOA frequency on the ground. If the status is unknown till speaking to the controllers in the air, I will get myself prepared with an alternative MOA-free route on the ground, rather than making a decision in the air.

[rtataryn]

ATC cannot tell VFR aircraft to remain clear of a MOA. You can ask for their status in the real world and then make a decision accordingly but they cannot tell you not to fly through it. I wouldn't attempt to ask a ground controller about MOA status, I'm not sure they'd have access to that info in the real world.

Thanks, Keith! That's very helpful. Based on the lesson learned, in the RW, I will call the listed MOA frequency on the ground. If the status is unknown till speaking to the controllers in the air, I will get myself prepared with an alternative MOA-free route on the ground, rather than making a decision in the air.

VFR pilots are not restricted from flying through a MOA. It is perfectly legal to fly through a MOA whether it's active or inactive. Certainly it's worth checking if the MOA is active, so that you can be "alert", but you should be alert at all times anyway. There is absolutely no reason to prepare a MOA-free route. In fact, out here in the western US, if we had to plan a MOA free route every time a MOA was active, many times we'd have to travel several hundred miles out of the way. Furthermore, many airports are within the MOA and would be impossible to access if it were "restricted" during operations. MOA's are never "restricted". There is a separate category for that airspace, called . . . . you guessed it . . . "restricted airspace". That's where live fire, etc goes on. MOA's never use live fire . . . just a bunch of military aircraft cruising around in formation and intercepting etc. It's very possible when flying through a MOA that YOU will be a tracking target. In a real world MOA don't be surprised if an F16 pulls up along side you and waves. They do not mind you being there - they may just come out and play with you.

[BFG]

That's interesting, Rod. Not a lot of MOAs out here near Philly where I fly, but I seem to remember more than one post online from military guys saying that VFR traffic into hot MOA's is a major pain on their side of the equation - needing to call off an active exercise, re-stage it, etc. over concern not just for the VFR traffic but the guys in the jets. The guy said they only get so much exercise time per training cycle and the lost minutes are painful on their end. For what that's worth - no idea how often that happens etc., but if left me thinking that I'd avoid a hot MOA if I had the chance, especially given a natural concern to fly as safely as possible for my own interest.

[wesyin]

VFR pilots are not restricted from flying through a MOA. It is perfectly legal to fly through a MOA whether it's active or inactive. Certainly it's worth checking if the MOA is active, so that you can be "alert", but you should be alert at all times anyway. There is absolutely no reason to prepare a MOA-free route. In fact, out here in the western US, if we had to plan a MOA free route every time a MOA was active, many times we'd have to travel several hundred miles out of the way. Furthermore, many airports are within the MOA and would be impossible to access if it were "restricted" during operations. MOA's are never "restricted". There is a separate category for that airspace, called . . . . you guessed it . . . "restricted airspace". That's where live fire, etc goes on. MOA's never use live fire . . . just a bunch of military aircraft cruising around in formation and intercepting etc. It's very possible when flying through a MOA that YOU will be a tracking target. In a real world MOA don't be surprised if an F16 pulls up along side you and waves. They do not mind you being there - they may just come out and play with you.

Thanks! Just to get my understanding straight. You are saying that avoiding hot MOAs is impractical in some areas in CA, on top of being fuel/time inefficient. In hot MOAs, there can be, say, fighter jets doing their exercises. However, they will not mess up with GA flyers and "defend their turf." Other than flying much faster than one, they are no special harzard.

Just in PE, if I do VFR again and need to fly through a MOA, I will honestly not bother checking with the ATC if the MOA is hot or cold, well, because no matter what I hear, I will keep my route. If I do have an alternative route in mind, then I will check with the ATC and see if I need to use the alternative. This is just a conclusion I reach after reaching Keith's and your replies. Thanks again.

[wesyin]

That's interesting, Rod. Not a lot of MOAs out here near Philly where I fly, but I seem to remember more than one post online from military guys saying that VFR traffic into hot MOA's is a major pain on their side of the equation - needing to call off an active exercise, re-stage it, etc. over concern not just for the VFR traffic but the guys in the jets. The guy said they only get so much exercise time per training cycle and the lost minutes are painful on their end. For what that's worth - no idea how often that happens etc., but if left me thinking that I'd avoid a hot MOA if I had the chance, especially given a natural concern to fly as safely as possible for my own interest.

I read online and did see military pilots and controllers "complain" about the VFR traffic in hot MOAs. This suggests they keep an eye on the VFR traffic, which I feel glad at.

[rtataryn]

That's interesting, Rod. Not a lot of MOAs out here near Philly where I fly, but I seem to remember more than one post online from military guys saying that VFR traffic into hot MOA's is a major pain on their side of the equation - needing to call off an active exercise, re-stage it, etc. over concern not just for the VFR traffic but the guys in the jets. The guy said they only get so much exercise time per training cycle and the lost minutes are painful on their end. For what that's worth - no idea how often that happens etc., but if left me thinking that I'd avoid a hot MOA if I had the chance, especially given a natural concern to fly as safely as possible for my own interest.

Oh, agreed fully, if you can easily avoid a hot MOA do it . . . for courtesy and safety. I'm sure it could be frustrating for them if it's a small MOA that's easy for you to jog around, or if you have room to fly under or over it. By all means avoid a hot MOA out of consideration and for increased safety, but it certainly is not illegal to fly through a MOA when it is active.

It's entirely possible that private pilots (and possibly the military) out here may have a different attitude regarding MOA's than in the east. I think out here with the huge MOA's and lower volume of private VFR aircraft it's probably more acceptable. I personally know a few pilots who have been flanked and waved at by military aircraft passing through hot MOA's.

The size of the MOAs in the west are enormous. Excessive added distance or sometimes weather can preclude a flight around a MOA. Plan a flight from 65S (Bonners) to KBLI (Bellingham). You've got 5 MOA's to pass through, or add an extra 90 miles or more to go around them. The desert southwest MOA's are even bigger. Plan a VFR flight from Phoenix to KTCS in New Mexico, or from St. George, Utah to Reno. Flying through MOAs are a part of life here. Realize too, many times they are impossible to avoid if the airport you are flying to or from is within the MOA. I frequently fly to R49 (Ferry County). It's below a MOA that runs from 300 ft agl to 17,999 agl. And it's frequently hot. You have no choice but to fly through the MOA.

[BFG]

I grew up in Salt Lake. The western half of the state is MOA!

[AeroEng]

Good ole dugway proving grounds in Utah, have done a lot of aircraft testing out there! BFG ever fly to kfdk ? That's home base for me , not to far from Philiy.