Question on I-3 right turn at Silex

[kamarad]

Hi,

I did make the I-3 rating flight yesterday and I have a question.

When I was approaching Silex from SMO, my GPS (Reality XP) did call for a parallel entry to the hold in order to make the turn toward the final course. I thought that this was because the angle between the incoming SMO radial and the ILS 8 final was too steep and this was standard procedure to make the turn. So I folllowed the GPS instruction.

Bad idea. The controler mentionned to me that I was expected to make a right turn at Silex to get to the ILS 8 course directly.

My question on this situation is: Is it frequent that GPS issue advices that are in contradiction to what the controler expect? And if yes, how to be sure of what to do in such a situation? Is the controler will always issue specific instruction to use a hold as a way to reverse course and in the absence of such instruction, we are expected to make direct turn to final?

Definitively interesting to try those thing in the comfort of our home instead of being in the air with a big iron on approach behind us !!!!

Pierre

[Keith Smith]

There are a certain set of circumstances where the depicted procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn (HILPT) should absolutely NOT be flown. These are:
1) if you're established on a segment of the approach depicted with NoPT, or
2) if you're receiving vectors to the final approach course. or
3) if timed approaches are in use

You just experienced case #2. This is not a random list that I'm citing from experience, they're actually in the FARs (although I am reciting from memory, so forgive me if they're not word for word from the FARs)

A GPS is not required to fly the ILS RWY 8 into BUR, but if you're going to use one for situational awareness, be sure to use the 'activate vector to final' option when you do receive the vector (or activate the leg after depicted hold).

If you have a chance to review the I-3 cockpit video on the training program, you'll see an example of how to fly it using VOR receivers alone, and you'll notice that the HILPT at SILEX was not flown, and never came into the picture.

The I-6 is the first time you'll do the full approach.

[Mark Hargrove]

If you're being vectored, anything you see depicted on the approach plate is "on hold" until you're actually cleared for the approach -- right? And once cleared, you're only supposed to fly whatever is in front of you for the remainder of the approach?

So, for example, if you were inbound towards SILEX on the SMO R-311 radial and ATC said something like "Cessna 123AB 3 miles from SILEX, cleared Burbank ILS Runway 8 approach", you WOULD be expected to fly the HILPT.

Instead, if somewhere along the way to SILEX you got vectors ("turn left, heading 250", "turn right, heading 350", "turn right, heading 045, descend and maintain 3700", "3 miles from SILEX, maintain 3700 until established, cleared Burbank ILS runway 8 approach"), you would NOT fly the procedure turn.

Is this about right?

-M.

[Ryan Geckler]

I was the controller for this flight. He was cleared from SILEX, not on vectors. This was per pilot request.

[arb65912]

I was the controller for this flight. He was cleared from SILEX, not on vectors. This was per pilot request.

So that means that hold was not applicable, correct?

[Ryan Geckler]

No, the hold must be flown; if he was on vectors, he does not. His last filed fix was SILEX and was cleared directly from that.

[kamarad]

No, the hold must be flown; if he was on vectors, he does not. His last filed fix was SILEX and was cleared directly from that.

Hi Ryan,

Yes, I remember than when asked if I wanted vectors or Silex, I have chosen Silex.

But, from your answer it seems that flying hte hold in lieu of procedure turn was the way to go? So what was my mistake during the approach?

Thanks all for clarification. This discussion is quite interesting..

pierre

[Ryan Geckler]

You flew the hold on the right side, but you went the wrong direction in the hold. Take a look at the chart, and you'll see that it should be right hand turns in the hold. From where you were, you should have teardrop entried into the hold and you would have been fine.

[kamarad]

Hi Ryan,

Now I'm really confused. Arriving at SITEX from SMO on a 311 heading and with a right turn hold, I think that the normal entry is parallel as a teardrop will require going from 311 to about 226 (256-30) which is 85 degree left, still possible but a parallel entry seems more natural.

My hold calculator gives me the same solution of parallel entry under those conditions..



is there others rules for entry that are different when a hold is used as HILPT?

Pierre

[Keith Smith]

This is turning into a bit of a mess

Pierre, you originally said:

"Bad idea. The controler mentionned to me that I was expected to make a right turn at Silex to get to the ILS 8 course directly."

Did he actually say that? Or did he say it should've been a right hand holding pattern?


Ryan, you said

You flew the hold on the right side, but you went the wrong direction in the hold. Take a look at the chart, and you'll see that it should be right hand turns in the hold. From where you were, you should have teardrop entried into the hold and you would have been fine.

When you say he went the wrong direction in the hold, what do you mean? He was flying west? That would be appropriate for a parallel hold entry, which is the most appropriate entry from that direction. Remember, a hold ENTRY looks VERY different to the steady state holding pattern.