LAX Bravo Transition Questions

[Mark Hargrove]

I have a small collection of questions about the various LAX Bravo transitions that I hope the PE controllers can help me with:

• There is a peculiar restriction in the Mini-Route: "LAX must be in west traffic or over-ocean configuration..." What other configuration is there? (or does "over-ocean" not mean the same as "landing east"?)
• When flying the special flight rules area transition, how far in advance of the bravo boundary would you start monitoring 128.55 and switch your transponder from 1200 to 1201? Similarly, how long after exiting the bravo would you switch back to 1200 and stop monitoring 128.55?
• Also in relation to the SFRA, is this transition compatible with flight following? If you had flight following in progress, do you proactively call them up and tell them you're going to be making the SFRA transition and ask for a frequency and squawk change? How do you pick up flight following again when you're clear of the bravo? Do you have to start afresh?
• There are notations on the Coliseum and Hollywood Park routes that they may not be available when LAX is landing east. What conditions/situations would cause them to NOT be available (or conversely, to be available) when LAX is landing east?
• For all of the transitions that require clearances, what are the radio calls from ATC that you can expect to hear when you're clear of the Bravo? Are they the same if you have/don't have flight following in progress?

Thanks!

-M.

[Keith Smith]

lax has three configs: west, over water, and east. In east ops, they land and takeoff east, whereas over water lands east and depart west.

regarding when to squawk and swap, I would say a couple of miles before.

The earlier the better for talking. The squawk is for atc's benefit, whereas the radio helps you live.

regarding flight following, if they know you are doing sfra, they will cut you loose prior to the boundary, probably with instructions on who to call on the other side to resume the flight following. If they know that you want to continue to have ff on the other side, they should be able to keep you in the system so that you don't have to cold call on the other side.

hollywood and coll routes might not work in east ops because of arrivals and deps.

whether you have flight following or not, atc is required to tell you when you exit the bravo.
typed from my phone, which has problem with this editor, sorry for brevity.

[Mark Hargrove]

OK, a new transition question:

The new version of the V-03 calls for landing back at KTOA after returning south back through the bravo. Let's say we decide fly the Coastal Route back south. That route keeps us at 5500 feet, just inside the southern bravo shelf until we reach, roughly, Long Beach harbor. This isn't terrible, but it's taken us well south of KTOA. Is there an option to request a descent to below the bottom of the Bravo shelf once we're south of LAX and clear of the core, or are we stuck at 5500 until we're clear of the Bravo at WILMA?

[Anthony Santanastaso]

OK, a new transition question:

The new version of the V-03 calls for landing back at KTOA after returning south back through the bravo. Let's say we decide fly the Coastal Route back south. That route keeps us at 5500 feet, just inside the southern bravo shelf until we reach, roughly, Long Beach harbor. This isn't terrible, but it's taken us well south of KTOA. Is there an option to request a descent to below the bottom of the Bravo shelf once we're south of LAX and clear of the core, or are we stuck at 5500 until we're clear of the Bravo at WILMA?

Hi Mark,

I would think that descending prior to the shoreline would be rather hazardous considering the large volume of VFR traffic operating above and below controlled airspace. Under normal circumstances (west ops) exiting the Coastal Route vertically prior to the Vincent Thomas Bridge would involve two different sectors of TRACON airspace in addition to the two Class D airports. The controller with whom you are speaking would have to coordinate with the adjacent sector over a relatively quick span of time, so perhaps any request to deviate from the route would best be made prior to reaching LAX. Descending early would also mean entering the Class D airspace rather suddenly which may or may not be possible due to the traffic currently under the control of the respective Local controllers.

Although I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask, I am not certain that your request would be granted prior to reaching the bridge. Personally, I think that it is safer to wait until the bridge before making the request to descend and turn back towards TOA.

Admittedly, I do not fly in this area and will certainly defer to my colleagues who have more experience with this neck of the woods. As a controller, I would summarize that the approval of your request is highly circumstantial and dependent upon the known conditions.

[jtek]

Irrespective of the V-3 rating, if I were doing this flight in the real world I would not choose the coastal route transition. I would fly the mini route. This is why multiple transitions exist: you choose the one that is most appropriate for what you need to do. In this case, mini route (or SFRA) is most appropriate.

[Mark Hargrove]

Anthony -- I was mostly curious about whether ATC would even consider a request to descend below the floor of a Bravo when you were engaged in a VFR transition. In the case of this particular transition it would actually be relatively safe to descend from 5500 to 3500, dropping below the Bravo but well above the Hawthorne Delta, but I certainly take your point in general. As Keith well knows, I'm one of those guys who likes to understand all of the boundary conditions of situations, and this particular one -- exiting a bravo transition by dropping below a shelf -- had never occurred to me before so I just thought I'd ask.

Josh -- Oh, I totally agree with you. The Coastal Route southbound is a kind of silly choice if you're heading for KTOA unless you were planning to overfly the Queen Mary or something, then descend over the Long Beach harbor and proceed back to KTOA for a straight-in to Rwy 29R. That's a lot of extra flying time and fuel, though, if your objective was simply to make the transition then land. The mini-route or the SFRA makes a lot more sense.

-M.

[Anthony Santanastaso]

Anthony -- I was mostly curious about whether ATC would even consider a request to descend below the floor of a Bravo when you were engaged in a VFR transition. In the case of this particular transition it would actually be relatively safe to descend from 5500 to 3500, dropping below the Bravo but well above the Hawthorne Delta, but I certainly take your point in general. As Keith well knows, I'm one of those guys who likes to understand all of the boundary conditions of situations, and this particular one -- exiting a bravo transition by dropping below a shelf -- had never occurred to me before so I just thought I'd ask.

-M.

As I mentioned at the end of my post, I imagine it would be highly dependent upon the traffic at the moment. You would also want to avoid the aircraft entering and exiting the SFRA who are on a separate advisory frequency and wouldn't have the benefit of being able to coordinate their position with you. At that point, once clear of the Class Bravo, ATC would likely terminate your radar services.

I am thinking about how Newark Local would handle me up the Hudson. If I were to start flying the Skyline Route from over the Verrazano Bridge then around the Statue of Liberty decide to descend into the SFRA, Newark Local would want nothing to do with me since I would be outside of the Bravo and in an area with a separate advisory frequency. In addition, I imagine they would advise against descending into the SFRA because of the high amount of traffic operating within the exclusion between NJ and NY.

[julio.elizalde]

From my experience with transiting the SFO class B, if you have some desperate need to descend and the approach controller saw open sky, they would probably grant it - especially if it means you exiting the class B early. On the other hand, I do think it's important for us to remember that Class B transitions are a courtesy and can be denied. In my opinion, we should respect the controller's workload, do the transition without any amendments and then deal with the extra few minutes of flying time on the other end. A deviation from the transition should only be done for extreme reasons.

[Mark Hargrove]

Julio & Anthony,

I don't disagree in any way. Thanks for taking the time to cover this so thoroughly!

-M.