One of the things I like about PE.. could be done more?

[brianshell]

I've recently posted a few ideas I've had recently on how PE might improve... Most of them, for very good reasons, shot down... but that doesn't mean I like PE any less. =)

One thing I've learned to really like about PE as I get better (I started at V1, mind you) is that occasionally I run into a controller willing to impart a "quick tip". These are genuinely appreciated because, without them, I would continue to make the same mistakes again and again!

For example: Yesterday I was flying towards KSMO airspace.. I had contacted the tower about a minute out, and was told to "standby". As I got closer to the airspace I still hadn't heard back, so I veered away and skimmed the edge because I hadn't received clearance. The controller came back shortly after, saw what I was doing, and explained that because it was not Class-B airspace, and because I had been acknowledged, that I could assume I was cleared into the airspace unless I heard otherwise. I had NO idea!

This is one of many examples where a controller took an extra 10 to 15 seconds to explain something.. I really appreciated it! There are obviously two problems with this:

1) Controllers taking time to explain something detracts from the realism of the experience for everyone else. I'm sensitive to that.
2) Controllers are certainly under no obligation to be 'teachers'. I'm sensitive to this as well.
3) Controllers are often busy and don't have time for this. Can't blame there for that, either!

Point is... when the stars line up, I'm THANKFUL to a controller who will take a moment to explain something I could be doing better. Even if they could shoot a quick text-chat directly to my screen with a "Pro-Tip" that would be a big help.

Another thought would be to have a service (I'd be willing to pay for it) where a PE controller could provide a 'debrief' at the end of a flight. (Perhaps on a frequency that didn't bother everyone else)... Let's say at the beginning of my flight, the same way I request to do a rating, I could request a "Post-Flight Debrief". Once my flight was over, a controller could give me a 20-second run-down on areas I could improve. (As stated above, sometimes we make mistakes that are "gray area" mistakes... not technically against the rules, but 'wrong' nonetheless)... Basically a list of "Just so you know" items......

Thanks again to everyone for the hard work in making PE what it is.

[Kevin_atc]

Hey Brian,

I was the one who gave you that quick tip yesterday about airspace. While we don't offer any sort of formalized debrief, we will occasionally take pilots over to a secluded frequency to discuss more lengthy matters so it doesn't interfere with the other pilots' experience.

I see two potential problems with a debrief option, though. First, when it's busy, we don't have time to analyze and remember each pilot's mistakes/high points. Second, when your flight involves multiple controllers, then the controllers would have to compare notes prior to the debrief which would take even more time away from the controllers' scope attention. You might be thinking, "Well then how do the pilot ratings work?" For the pilot ratings from the controller's standpoint, the pilot is assumed to be passing the rating unless told otherwise. One big mistake will typically terminate the rating thus all that gets passed on from controller to controller is "Failed/passing the rating" so there are no notes that have to be compared. And in terms of workload, from our perspective it's pretty easy to see when a pilot messes up so that sticks out. As I mentioned before, one major screw up will terminate the rating so that's all we have to look for as opposed to multiple mess ups throughout the flight.

If you're ever curious about how you flew an approach, an airway, an ODP, etc... it never hurts to ask the controller. Maybe start it with "Socal approach, N123, quick question if you have a minute." The controller will either deny your question if they're too busy, tell you to go ahead or take you to a different frequency.

[Keith Smith]

Flight instruction or debrief capability is something that's been requested a healthy number of times, and one of the value-added services we'd like to provide in the future.

In addition to the time/workload limitations that we face right now, it's not always clear how much feedback a pilot actually wants from their flight, or which elements of the flight they'd like to have critiqued.

If you're doing a rating, we generally watch you pretty closely, but even then, if there are things you're not doing perfectly (ie, making redundant or inefficient radio calls), we may not call you on it and instead limit the feedback to critical items.

In the short term, you could put a note in your remarks asking for controllers to "send detailed feedback via the passdown" and I'll make sure it gets to you (I'm the only one with access to your contact info). I can't promise you'll get a consistent level of service, but we can test this out and perhaps scale it up depending on the feedback we get.

Ultimately, what's really needed is someone who can see not only where you are on the scope and hear your comms, but actually see what you're doing in the cockpit, probably through a screen sharing system like Skype. Let me know if you agree with that or if you think it would be perfectly sufficient to just have someone watching on radar and listening to comms. In other words, what elements of the flight are you interested in having closely monitored?

[brianshell]

Hey Brian,

I was the one who gave you that quick tip yesterday about airspace. While we don't offer any sort of formalized debrief, we will occasionally take pilots over to a secluded frequency to discuss more lengthy matters so it doesn't interfere with the other pilots' experience.

You've been awesome... for the record... even after I wrecked two planes yesterday. =)

[brianshell]

Flight instruction or debrief capability is something that's been requested a healthy number of times, and one of the value-added services we'd like to provide in the future.

That is great news!! It's something I would open my wallet for... and now you're talking about an offering that is a *SERIOUS* differentiator against any other option in the market. Would be amazing.

In addition to the time/workload limitations that we face right now, it's not always clear how much feedback a pilot actually wants from their flight, or which elements of the flight they'd like to have critiqued.

Similar to the way you've solved the rating problem, I'll bet this can be solved by specifying a category of feedback (or level of feedback) desired when the flight-plan is filed.

In the short term, you could put a note in your remarks asking for controllers to "send detailed feedback via the passdown" and I'll make sure it gets to you (I'm the only one with access to your contact info). I can't promise you'll get a consistent level of service, but we can test this out and perhaps scale it up depending on the feedback we get.

Actually, getting an inconsistent level of service is part of what keeps it valuable... Each controller will perceive each pilot differently. Some will have different suggestions... The trick is setting the expectation that this is a GOOD thing and not a BAD thing. =)

Ultimately, what's really needed is someone who can see not only where you are on the scope and hear your comms, but actually see what you're doing in the cockpit, probably through a screen sharing system like Skype.

Screen-sharing is one possible (albeit heavy) solution... X-Plane outputs quite a bit of detail over the network and you might be able to leverage this to have a remote instructor without special software needed (other than the PE client, of course).

Let me know if you agree with that or if you think it would be perfectly sufficient to just have someone watching on radar and listening to comms. In other words, what elements of the flight are you interested in having closely monitored?

I've mentioned this to you in the past... I actually see a potential for two very different products. The first would be a "CFI Replacement". Someone sitting in the virtual-cockpit with you, with real-time two-way comms... this person would (theoretically) be dedicated to your flight and instruction, just like a real CFI. This would be GREAT.. potentially a huge project on your end... and something I would pay for... but not quite what I'm suggesting in the context of this thread..

For THIS thread, I'm suggesting something simpler... that the controller be able to provide feedback purely based on the information a real-world controller would have available to them. Did I do the transitions properly? With enough precision? Could I have improved my communications? It really could be as simple as each controller jotting down some notes while I was under their control... culminating in a series of notes that could be emailed to me (automatically?) at the conclusion of my flight.

[Tim Krajcar]

Brian,

A good friend of mine just received his CFI and is a very experienced simmer as well (meaning he's fully comfortable using flight sims as an instruction platform). I'm sure he would be interested in providing some 'virtual CFI' services for you for a reasonable fee. PM me the contact information you'd like him to have, and I'll make the introduction, if you're interested.

[Hayden Young]

If some system was available that allowed another pilot to ride the right seat I wouldn't mind helping some people out from time to time. I certainly feel like I know what I am talking about and love teaching people. And while I am certainly not as qualified as some people, I wouldn't charge you anything for it either.

[Mooniac]

Just the other day, I was thinking it would be nice to have a virtual CFI service also. For me, it would be important that it be an actual qualified CFII. I'm not expecting to be able to log time, but more concerned that I not develop bad habits.

Lately I've been working on my IPC (Instrument Proficiency Check) with a local CFI, after a long lapse in my IFR currency (got the certification in 2000, used it briefly four years ago and nothing else). What I find to be the biggest challenge is workload management and getting the procedures down so I don't have to think about what to do next. In addition, the workload is heightened by the lack of an autopilot in my plane, so I've been forcing myself to not use it in the sim wherever possible (which accounts for some poor heading and altitude tracking at times ). With the instructor we've been working on the pre-approach 5-As (Atis, Altimiter, Avionics, Approach, Airspeed) and the 5-Ts (Turn,Time,Twist,Throttle,Talk), along with GUMPPSS and missed approach checklists, etc. I try to be thorough in the sim, but it's easy to get lazy. It would be nice to have a CFI giving me the same sort of workout as I get in real life (missed approaches, quick switch-overs to approaches I hadn't briefed, rerouting, etc.)

I'm probably going on too much, but one reason my currency lapsed was after an awakening real flight about four years ago. I was returning to Massachusetts from a flight to Utah and the Grand Canyon with a non-pilot friend. I was doing a lot of IFR flying and on the way back had a leg of 4.5 hours in the clouds the whole time and heavy rain as we approached our intended stop KFKL (Franklin, PA). On approach, I broke out of the clouds a bit above minimums. However, I hadn't followed my procedures properly to check on wind direction. There was a steady cross-wind from the right and just as I got the left tire on the ground, a big gust came up shoving me over to the side. I knew I wouldn't be able to keep it on the runway, so I put in full power, pitched up and climbed out to the missed approach point as I called out to approach (uncontrolled airfield with no-one around). But I didn't get a response from approach, so I entered the hold as I tried to determine the problem.

Making a long story a bit shorter, it turned out that my COM1 wasn't transmitting (probably due to some water that leaked in). I was able to reconnect on COM2 after a lap in the hold, only to find that weather had worsened and my alternate was also socked in. So I had a harrowing flight with course changes as ATC tried to redirect me to airports that would work, eventually sending me to Beaver County when weather opened up a bit there (with some scolding comments as my heading and altitude varied too much while trying to dig up charts for new airports.

After that flight, I realized that even though I had the rating, I really wasn't prepared for serious IFR flying -- so I let it lapse. Now I've decided to spend the time and money to really learn to do it right. PE is helping a LOT, and perhaps it's good that I'm just working on standard IFR routing and approaches for comfort, but each time I meet again with the CFII (he's busy, so it's about once every two weeks) and think I'm ready, he throws some more twists in there that make me realize I'm still not where I want to be with my proficiency. I'd really love to have a virtual CFII that could keep me challenged while nudging me if I'm not doing it right.

[aim4587]

Brian,

A debriefing does sound like a great idea but, it also makes sense the controllers are normally busy. Just an idea, if you don't mind making your flight public you can stream it on http://www.twitch.tv. They have a live chat for your viewers which may make it possible for critique in real time. Not sure how many viewers you would get or the quality but you may get a few pointers doing this. Advertising date and time on the PE Forums might also get you a helpful community member that will sit in on the flight with you. Hope this helps and best of luck.

-Joe