MUSEL7 /A Lost Comms

[Nelson L.]

Been thinking about transitioning to the B732 lately for the jet routes (/L in a CRJ gets boring...) and have been reviewing a few of the popular routes. From KSNA-KLAX, it appears the preferred routing is MUSEL7.DAG.CLARR2. For the MUSEL7, seeing as the SID is "radar required", I'm assuming /A people usually get direct "first point on fix" or a heading to intercept a radial before they reach MUSEL, but if I were to lose comms immediately following wheels up, and I was /A, how would I proceed direct MUSEL? Would I just go direct to the first point on my transition (in this case, Seal Beach)? Seeing as MUSEL is a point defined by a few intersecting radials, I don't see how I could identify it without radar vectors.

[wmburns]

Ok. I'm going to take a stab at this. Maybe off base on some points but not all......

I'm not sure how a lost comm situation would happen "AT" wheels up. Lost comm "action" is either 10 or 5 minutes after departure depending upon what your departure instructions were.

But....... looking at the following Skyvector link one could see that flying a 175 heading from one mile down wind of KSNA would intercept the OCN R-282 radial. Flying even further out would overfly SLI R-150 radial.
http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.34238396329 ... Y:V.K2.DAG

If restricting speed to 200 IAS then in 10 minutes one would expect to be up to 33 nm down range. Obviously a slower aircraft would not be so far down range.

Obviously when flying /A while one can't fly direct MUSEL but one could still intercept a VOR radial and track towards the VOR. So one of the keys here is just how far down range you are when the lost comm time out expires. Regardless of exactly where you are, using the HSI is not hard to turn to a 30 degree intercept course for the SLI R-150 inbound radial tracking towards SLI.

<covers head> how did I do?

[Nelson L.]

I'm not sure how a lost comm situation would happen "AT" wheels up. Lost comm is either 10 or 5 minutes after departure depending upon what your departure instructions were.

Now I'm even more confused Unless I've misunderstood you (or the opposite way around), then I have to go and relearn everything about the term "lost-comms". I was referring to my radios blowing up the moment my imaginary first officer said "positive rate, gear up", not necessarily the lost-comms procedures. On the topic of MUSELS, I'm going to just say right now that if I'm in a lost-comms situation in a 737 going 200+ knots, there is no way at all I'm going to be doing math.... Yes, technically the heading intercepts the OCN and SXC radials, but those radials are for the purpose of a transition, not for getting to MUSEL (sure, its A way, but I don't think its THE way). Seeing as it would be impossible to go direct MUSEL, I'm leaning towards going direct to the first part of the transition (in the case of the DAG transition, I would intercept the SLI 150R once at the MEA of 2400 (which might not make sense seeing as the OROCA is almost certainly higher than the MEA, which makes continuing on the 177 heading a dumb idea, but my thought is that you're "expecting" radar vectors to MUSEL, which means that the FAA gurus probably left a bit of a buffer there to prevent people from slamming into a mountain). When Peter sees this thread, we'll both see how very wrong we both are

[NyyDave]

The priority after lost comms goes: As assigned, as vectored, as expected, then as filed.

So if all you've gotten is the clearance to depart via the MUSEL7.DAG then pick up the SXC 61 degree radial and then make your turn when hitting the SLI 150 radial to overfly MUSEL then continue as assigned on the SID.

If you've gotten "vectors seal beach" in the clearance then fly directly to that fix.

For altitude you should be fly the look at the assigned altitude, expected altitude (AKA the one you were told to expect 5-10 after departure) and the MEA, and fly the highest of those 3.

I do believe...

[wmburns]

On the departure clearance what was the "expect time"? 5 or 10 minutes? What was the initial altitude and the final altitude?

My words were not as clear as I would have liked. I meant to say that the soonest you should be considering taking any independent action on your part should be is after the expect time has expired.

[On the topic of MUSELS, I'm going to just say right now that if I'm in a lost-comms situation in a 737 going 200+ knots, there is no way at all I'm going to be doing math....

It seems to me that there's no "math" to do. Every pilot is expected to make note of their departure time. Otherwise one wouldn't know when the expect time expired. No real "action" is needed until the expect time has expired.

Since flying over water, terrain isn't an issue.

How many miles that you happen to be down range only really matters to the flight path to intercept the radial. Regardless of just how far down range you happen to be when the expect time expires, the HSI will still allow you to find the 30 degree intercept course without doing any math.

Could be an interesting test to fly the MUSEL7 departure offline. Simulate a lost comm situation at wheels up. When 10 minutes (or 5) expires, make a turn to a 30 degree intercept of the SLI R-150 inbound radial using just the HSI. This would give you an idea of the work load this requires while flying a 737 slant Alpha.

[Nelson L.]

Ah, it appears I misunderstood your previous post wmburns - I had been under the impression that you were talking about using your airspeed to determine a specific distance from a VOR to then proceed to an intercept. For the "expect" time, the SID only mandates an "expect radar vectors to MUSELS", so no lateral guidance other than "direct". So basically I've deducted there's no way to go direct MUSELS /A and that the "correct" thing to do would be to track a radial?

[Nelson L.]

Apologies for reviving a dead topic, but I was looking over my old posts (*sigh*) and I'm still quite confused about this. Wmburns, it's my understanding that the expect time only applies to things that you were told to expect (i.e. maintain 5000 expect 10000 10 minutes after departure). If I were to lose comms, I would generally continue my course along the flight plan (assuming I wasn't being vectored for anything) and if I was told to expect 10000 10 minutes after, I would commence my climb to 10000 in 10 minutes (assuming the MEAs allow for it). However, on the MUSEL7, /A aircraft are vectored to SLI before reaching MUSEL. If SNA was, for example, in the Rockies, there would be a problem with deviating off the specified course. I'm pretty sure the buffer wouldn't provide enough terrain separation to make that possible. Even if in the case of the MUSEL7 it DID provide that safety, I'll assume the MUSEL7 isn't the only SID in the US of this type. Perhaps Peter could shed some light on this?

[Peter Grey]

Perhaps Peter could shed some light on this?

Sure I'll give it a try.

The confusion here is with the application of the "expect filed altitude 10 minutes after departure".

This solely relates to altitude.

So let's look at the lost comm reg 91.185:

§91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.

(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.

(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:

(1) Route. (i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;

(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;

(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or

(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan.

(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:

(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;

(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in §91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or

(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.

(3) Leave clearance limit. (i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.

(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.

We are assuming IMC in the scenario so paragraph c is what matters.

So starting with (1) route: Well route last assigned by clearance is the DP so we follow the DP, which is great except we are on a vector.

So subpart ii deals with vectors and states to go direct to the point you are being vectored to (MUSEL), well that's good except we are /A.

So at this point we are beyond 91.175 and into 91.3 territory (do what is required to not die). Terrain isn't a factor on this one so it really up to you as the PIC on how to handle it.

Possible options include (but aren't limited to):

1. Join the SXC061R inbound to MUSEL (that's the first defining radial you hit), or outbound if you are on the TRM transition.
2. Join the OCN282R outbound to MUSEL or inbound to OCN if you are on the OCN transition
3. Join the SLI150R inbound to MUSEL.

All three of those options are "safe" in the sense that you won't hit anything and are quickly at the MEA/MOCA. The obvious exception is the TRM transition where the MOCA is 10200, you'll want to evaluate terrain if you are going out that way.

In your set up 1 of the above 3 should have all ready been set for navigation purposes so there shouldn't be much of a workload increase.

If terrain is such a factor that exact lost comm procedures are required to prevent hitting it they will be defined on the chart:

For example:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1504/05889ASPEN.PDF which is a similar departure at an airport with terrain issues (ASE), note it has a detailed lost comm procedure.

[kullery]

Peter,

I'm curious, I know you don't use Foreflight, but let's assume you have an iPad available on board when this happens. How would you rank a 4th option of direct MUSEL using Foreflight? Obviously it's not a certified installation and you have filed /A, but as you said, we are in 91.3 territory now. It's a question that I have considered as most RW rentals I have available to me are /A (or might as well be because the GPS is so old and/or database is out of date). Would you have any concerns about navigating direct when presumably controllers don't think you are equipped to go direct?

[Peter Grey]

I'm curious, I know you don't use Foreflight, but let's assume you have an iPad available on board when this happens. How would you rank a 4th option of direct MUSEL using Foreflight?

It'd be an option, I've actually used foreflight but it was for a short period of time several years ago and as a result I'm not 100% comfortable talking about it (especially as I don't currently have it so I can't refer to it). From what I saw of it when integrated with a GPS (mine didn't have a GPS) I wouldn't have any issue with using it in that manner in a 91.3 situation.