Flight planning complaint

[ADavis79]

Hello-

I recently conducted a flight from KSAN to KLAS using the Peble 5 departure with a Seal beach (SLI) transition, and on to Pomona VOR, Daggett VOR, and a CLARR2 arrival. I have set up a very detailed flight plan that will take me on that route. Now whenever I file that flight plan, ATC wants me to fly a Santa Catalina transition and into LA airspace, which is what I'm trying to avoid. if I wanted to fly through KLAX airspace, I would've set up my flight plan and FMS file to reflect that. Needless to say, I'm a little confused and quite annoyed as to why ATC woult tell me to fly one way, and then completely change it to something else the next time I try to fly from KSAN to KLAS. I set up that route for a reason, and i intend to fly it that way. So now, I log on to PE to interact with ATC, then log off so I can fly it the way i prefer, which defeats the purpose of being on pilotedge... can I get some clarification as to why ATC eould give me one route before, but then change it?

Annoyed pilot

[Ryan B]

Dear Annoyed Pilot... the route you were given is the preferred route.

I went to flightaware and checked a typical airliner routing between SAN and LAS.

PEBLE5 SXC LAX DAG KEPEC3 - is what turned up. I'm not a socal controller but I think they take you out over the ocean to avoid higher jet traffic along the coast and inland... or maybe to avoid departures off LAX - I'm not exactly sure. CLARR2 is almost the same but it's the non RNAV routing...so expect either the CLARR2 or KEPEC3 depending on your navigation equipment... but expect the SXC transition.

Expect realistic routings on Pilot Edge!

[Keith Smith]

Here are the routings for the last 70 or so aircraft from SAN to LAS in the real world: http://flightaware.com/analysis/route.r ... ation=KLAS

Notice the route they're flying matches what you were issued. The reason for this route, from what I understand, is to stop you becoming a hood ornament for the SAN arrivals on the HUBRD arrival as well as the stream of LAX departures. It's generally a bad idea to enter anything into your FMS in terms of routing until you have received your clearance.

I hope this helps shed some light. If there is preferred routing, that's what you're going to get. What you filed is going to be trumped by preferred routing every time. I'm sorry if that didn't meet your expectations, but your expectations weren't in line with real world procedures.

[Marcus Becker]

Pointer #2, don't input your route until it's verified with ATC.

[chevyrules]

Hello-

I recently conducted a flight from KSAN to KLAS using the Peble 5 departure with a Seal beach (SLI) transition, and on to Pomona VOR, Daggett VOR, and a CLARR2 arrival. I have set up a very detailed flight plan that will take me on that route. Now whenever I file that flight plan, ATC wants me to fly a Santa Catalina transition and into LA airspace, which is what I'm trying to avoid. if I wanted to fly through KLAX airspace, I would've set up my flight plan and FMS file to reflect that. Needless to say, I'm a little confused and quite annoyed as to why ATC woult tell me to fly one way, and then completely change it to something else the next time I try to fly from KSAN to KLAS. I set up that route for a reason, and i intend to fly it that way. So now, I log on to PE to interact with ATC, then log off so I can fly it the way i prefer, which defeats the purpose of being on pilotedge... can I get some clarification as to why ATC eould give me one route before, but then change it?

Annoyed pilot

1. ATC has some preferred routes they would like pilots to take to help reduce their workload. If the route you're going to fly( such as KSAN to KLAS) has a preferred route, but you file another route, you can expect to get your route changed to the preferred one. Remember filing an IFR flight plan is different from a VFR flight plan. You're not telling ATC what you're going to do( where with the VFR flight plan, the route you tell FSS aides in search and rescue). When you file IFR, you concede a lot of control to ATC and that includes how they route you between your departure airport and destination. You want to get an as filed instruction? File the preferred route if there is one. ATC has a flow on how they want to handle IFR aircraft, they are not going to let one pilot throw it off and give them a different route.

2. I assume you are doing this in an airliner, you'll be well above LAX's Class B airspace as ATC will usually tell you to climb and maintain 15,000 when you get your clearance.

3. You don't have to worry so much about airspace when you are IFR unlike VFR. You're automatically cleared to enter a Bravo, etc. If ATC doesn't want you to fly a portion of your route due to traffic, they will vector you around them.

[ADavis79]

Hello-

I recently conducted a flight from KSAN to KLAS using the Peble 5 departure with a Seal beach (SLI) transition, and on to Pomona VOR, Daggett VOR, and a CLARR2 arrival. I have set up a very detailed flight plan that will take me on that route. Now whenever I file that flight plan, ATC wants me to fly a Santa Catalina transition and into LA airspace, which is what I'm trying to avoid. if I wanted to fly through KLAX airspace, I would've set up my flight plan and FMS file to reflect that. Needless to say, I'm a little confused and quite annoyed as to why ATC woult tell me to fly one way, and then completely change it to something else the next time I try to fly from KSAN to KLAS. I set up that route for a reason, and i intend to fly it that way. So now, I log on to PE to interact with ATC, then log off so I can fly it the way i prefer, which defeats the purpose of being on pilotedge... can I get some clarification as to why ATC eould give me one route before, but then change it?

Annoyed pilot

1. ATC has some preferred routes they would like pilots to take to help reduce their workload. If the route you're going to fly( such as KSAN to KLAS) has a preferred route, but you file another route, you can expect to get your route changed to the preferred one. Remember filing an IFR flight plan is different from a VFR flight plan. You're not telling ATC what you're going to do( where with the VFR flight plan, the route you tell FSS aides in search and rescue). When you file IFR, you concede a lot of control to ATC and that includes how they route you between your departure airport and destination. You want to get an as filed instruction? File the preferred route if there is one. ATC has a flow on how they want to handle IFR aircraft, they are not going to let one pilot throw it off and give them a different route.

2. I assume you are doing this in an airliner, you'll be well above LAX's Class B airspace as ATC will usually tell you to climb and maintain 15,000 when you get your clearance.

3. You don't have to worry so much about airspace when you are IFR unlike VFR. You're automatically cleared to enter a Bravo, etc. If ATC doesn't want you to fly a portion of your route due to traffic, they will vector you around them.

On all flights from KSAN to KLAS, I fly a C17 under the call sign "N264 Heavy." The very first time I flew that, the routing was as I stated in my initial post. PEBLE5 departure to Seal Beach VOR, Pomona VOR, Daggett VOR, and so forth. So I guess my question is, was the first route a mistake? And the next time I tried to fly it, I was routed via Catalina. So I changed from IFR to VFR so I could do it the way I wanted to. When I was handed off to another ATC, he asked me about my route, and when I told him I was flying the PREBLE5 departure with SLI transition, in VFR mode, he said I couldn't have picked a better route. That confused me even more. I thought to myself "If the first route was IFR on this route, and this ATC is telling me it's a perfect route, why on earth is every other ATC telling me to go via Catalina and LAX?" See my confusion here? I guess I'm looking for consistency. I also want to find a southern California airport that will allow for a consistent IFR flight and routing to KLAS without having to fly via LAX airspace. From the replies I've received thus far, I guess I'm being too picky and rigid. Perhaps so.

[mmerelles]

QUOTE: I also want to find a southern California airport that will allow for a consistent IFR flight and routing to KLAS without having to fly via LAX airspace.


Just curious, what is the problem flying via klax airspace as real world jets do by departing ksan?

Technically speaking you are not even at klax airspace, klax bravo goes ground to 10,000 feet. pebble4 states you should be at 14,000 feet or above crossing MELDY fix which happens much sooner than even heading to the desired transition. You are not flying LAX airspace!

[wmburns]

Just curious, what is the problem flying via klax airspace as real world jets do by departing ksan?

Just a WAG. Simulation of a "Bent Spear" transport?

Might be better to not overfly a densely populated area if carrying very hazardous cargo......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... erminology

In all seriousness. It's better to not spend time entering a flight plan until it has been approved by ATC.

It also seems to me that IF there's a compelling reason to have a SPECIFIC flight path (training, simulation of a RW event or what not), then it is up to you to explain why the route is required. But just as importantly the route has to be valid for the SID/STAR restrictions (navigation equipment, altitude, speed, climb gradient) aircraft type, and airport operations.

In my own case, I have had a few occasions to make requests outside of the normal. In a recent case I was conducting an FSE medical charter flight. The route of the flight would have involved spending a long time above 12,000 feet in an non-pressurized aircraft. Which seemed unwise when the PAX are sick already.

Working with the PE controllers, we came up with a routing that allowed the entire flight to be conducted at 10,000 feet.

Bottom line. I have found the PE ATC controllers to be very accommodating to reasonable requests. But just like in the real world, it helps when you come prepared. IE, do your home work.

[Ryan B]

I can't answer for the controller on PE but maybe they gave you that route because you asked? But the route everyone linked above with SXC is the preferred route.

I've found if there's no conflicts and you really really want a route you can usually get it. Or just file the SXC transition and if you're in a hurry ask for direct DAG or something... I've done that before.

[Peter Grey]

Hello,

The problem with your route wasn't quite what you are under the impression it was. I was the controller working your flight.

The problem with your route was that you filed 30 fixes which mostly corresponded to PEBLE5 SLI POM DAG KEPEC3. The problem with this was you had a couple extra fixes and a couple missing fixes, that's why you weren't cleared as filed (also you can't file every fix on the departure and arrival in replacement for the departure and arrival). Your choice to go over SLI vs SXC was not the problem. Honestly I didn't even notice SLI in the route section (as soon as I saw the mass of fixes I simply changed it to the preferred route, only later did I realize that what you filed was close to that).

When I cleared you via PEBLE5 SXC LAX DAG CLARR2 (the preferred route) you simply indicated you wouldn't be able to do the flight and requested a VFR departure. If you had asked for SLI POM DAG instead of SXC LAX DAG I would have given it to you (it is considered an acceptable route by us however by default without a specific request we route you via SXC).

If you had filed "PEBLE5 SLI POM DAG CLARR2" you would have been cleared as filed.