Question for Marcus on a DP

[rtataryn]

You were way too busy tonight for me to ask on frequency, but I have a quick question on the CATHEDRAL ONE out of KPSP if you see this post. The route description for runway 31L/R says: "Climb heading 310 to cross PSP VORTAC R-268, then turn right direct PSP VORTAC, thence . . . ". After I made the turn at R268 I checked in with you and you asked if I was on the CATHEDRAL ONE because I had turned too early and I should have waited to turn at the 274 radial. I didn't comment at the time with the busy frequency and workload while hand flying, but later after landing I studied the DP again. And it looks pretty clear on the graphic description that the turn appears to be at 274, yet the textual description says 268. Which one is right?

Also, on my clearance (not given by you) I was given the "CATHEDRAL ONE departure, Thermal transition". That caught me a bit off guard because I didn't know that there was a "Thermal transition" for this DP - in the sense of a formal description that would require me to follow a specific route. I asked clearance to repeat it just in case I misunderstood, but I really should have questioned it further prior to accepting it. In any case, I figured I would be given a vector or "direct to" long before that mattered, but while I'm asking questions here, is that a legitimate clearance?

[Dean33]

I won't answer the question but will add to the comment on how busy it was last night on Pilotedge.

This was noticeable and a great thing for Pilotedge.

What was also clear was that there were several extra controllers online across the network and everything seemed to work like clockwork. The controllers included the ever-patient boss Keith himself.

Great experience last night. I'm just a P3D simmer but I came to the thought last night 'why would I ever want to fly my sim without Pilotedge?'. It adds so much realism and discipline to my simming experience.

All controllers - thank you.

Dean.
N8DL

[Ryan B]

It is the 268 radial. The 274 radial depicts the airway.

[Keith Smith]

268 radial is correct, and there is no TRM transition, it should've just been "Cathedral One departure, direct Thermal..."

We'll address it with the controller.

This can be tricky for the controllers some times, because a pilot might file CATH1.TRM, which at a glance looks like it would be the TRM transition of the CATH1 SID. In fact, it should be filed as "CATH1.PSP TRM..." Even so, the controller needs to reference the SOPs or the SID to see what is and isn't a transition. Of course, in real life, the controller is working 1 field instead of 40, so they can just memorize the few SIDs for the airport and not have to look things up in real time. Lucky buggers.

[Flying Penguin]

I won't answer the question but will add to the comment on how busy it was last night on Pilotedge.

This was noticeable and a great thing for Pilotedge.

What was also clear was that there were several extra controllers online across the network and everything seemed to work like clockwork. The controllers included the ever-patient boss Keith himself.

Great experience last night. I'm just a P3D simmer but I came to the thought last night 'why would I ever want to fly my sim without Pilotedge?'. It adds so much realism and discipline to my simming experience.

All controllers - thank you.

Dean.
N8DL

I know it's kind of OT to the thread, but can I just echo this? PE at it's best last night, it was nice to see so many controllers on (and importantly to have enough traffic to warrant it), it was one of the best nights on PE I've had in a long time, despite Keith trying to send me to Van Nuys (I was on my way to Brown!) .

Thanks to all

Cheers,

Jamie (N323DE)

[Marcus Becker]

268 radial is correct, and there is no TRM transition, it should've just been "Cathedral One departure, direct Thermal..."

We'll address it with the controller.

This can be tricky for the controllers some times, because a pilot might file CATH1.TRM, which at a glance looks like it would be the TRM transition of the CATH1 SID. In fact, it should be filed as "CATH1.PSP TRM..." Even so, the controller needs to reference the SOPs or the SID to see what is and isn't a transition. Of course, in real life, the controller is working 1 field instead of 40, so they can just memorize the few SIDs for the airport and not have to look things up in real time. Lucky buggers.

Keith has the gist here. What gets me is that you said I said "Thermal transition". While I can't memorize every single procedure for all of our airspace, I do know that the Cathedral DP is to PSP and not TRM. I'll have to go back to the tapes. I remember that your route was a full route because what you filed wasn't what we typically desire and because it was busy, I put you on something more familiar. I think you initially filed the PSP5? -EDIT- ***This was not you. It was a different pilot around the same time that was flying to a different but close airport.***

Regarding the PSP268R and the CATH1, yes, I made an error. Instead of having the procedure memorized, I memorized what I typically see out of pilots and that is that they are north of the PSP class D airspace as they are on their way to PSP. For some reason, you weren't and a quick glance at the chart referenced the PSP274R and I correlated your being south of the norm to the DP's reference to the radial as what I thought to be correct.

[Marcus Becker]

I've listened to the tapes and I was not the one who provided IFR clearance, that clears up for me the CATH1 transition question. I will try to remember PSP268R for CATH1 departures. I looked on PEAware at where you made that turn and it was one heck of a sharp one (according to the map) and that made your position unfamiliar with my expectations of the departure. Do you recall if you tracked the PSP268R inbound to PSP? Not that it matters because it was my error and I can only say that I'll take care of that.

[Keith Smith]

Marcus, peaware uses 1 minute position reports, so any significant heading change is going to look sharp. Take a look at the V-1's at SNA and you'll see what I'm talking about.

The first post mentioned that the clnc was issued by someone else. We'll take care of that.

[rtataryn]

Thanks Marcus and Keith. Marcus, it was a standard rate turn after passing the 268R, and no I did not track the 268 radial inbound, just direct to it after the turn . . . sort of (I was hand flying, running a climb checklist and talking all at the same time, so there was a couple of minor heading corrections along the climb to PSP. I looked at that map too and was surprised how it paints that turn so sharp. I also crossed directly over the PSP and JLI VORTACs, but it shows the line well off of them.

Also, I essentially never file a SID in my flight plan. I just put in the route fixes and figure that I'll be given the preferred SID or DP in my clearance anyway. In fact, I fully expected to be given the THERMAL SIX for this route to KMYF.

Thanks to both of you for answering and always being so professional. I've got to again say how fantastic this service is. I spent some time earlier in the evening watching you on the scope Keith and am always amazed and impressed what you guys are able to juggle and all the information you keep in your heads on this airspace. Incredible really.

[Keith Smith]

Rod,

If you know the TRM6 is the most efficient departure, I'd encourage you to file it. Relying on the controllers to amend it is an option, but the reality is that with current traffic levels and one guy working 40 fields at a time, they don't always have time to research the perfect routing. Most departures out of PSP are not going to TRM, so it's easy for one of our guys to forget that TRM6 exists and can be used to get you there. Having worked 4 other PSP deps that night, the clnc guy might assign you CATH1.PSP TRM (as was done here). You definitely do NOT want the CATH1.PSP SID as it's published. You'd have to go to PSP, EMRUD, back to PSP, then over to TRM, which is crazy.

We do have a route lookup system, but it will yield the TEC route, which covers a departure AREA (not airport), hence it won't contain the SID.

For all those reasons, file what you want to fly, which you already knew was the TRM6

Keith