SID MEA Question

[Caesar]

I'm watching the IFR Workshop on departure procedures and I just want to make sure I understand the altitude requirements for a SID correctly

I'm looking at the VNY2.DAG departure (the same one used in the I-05 test). If I was not otherwise assigned an altitude from the controller, is this correct:

1) I cross VNY at 5,000 and maintain 5,000 until I reach IPIHO.
2) I reach IPIHO at 5,000 and then start climbing to and maintain 6,000.
3) I reach TWINE at 6,000 and then start climbing to and maintain 7,000.
4) I reach PMD at 7,000 and then start climbing to and maintain 9.000.
5) etc.

In other words, if a particular leg of the SID indicates an MEA of 7,000, do I wait until I reach the start of that leg before I start my climb, or should I already be at the MEA when I reach the start of that leg? My understanding from watching the video is that I don't start the climb to MEA for a leg until I reach the start of that leg, but that seems counter intuitive to the term "Minimum En route Altitude." If it's the "Minimum" for that leg shouldn't I already be at that altitude before reaching the start of the leg?

[Keith Smith]

This isn't SID specific, but if you need to be at a fix at a certain altitude, it would be published as a Minimum Crossing Altitude. See the Enroute workshops for more information on that.

ATC is going to assign an altitude to maintain, and an altitude to expect after a certain amount of time. The expected altitude is relevant for lost comms only.

The steps you listed are correct ONLY if you've lost comms, and the MEA's are higher than the expected altitude. Otherwise, if expected alt is higher than MEA, you'd climb to the expected altitude after xx mins. The highest of (assigned, expected or published applies)

In normal ops, you'd climb to the assigned altitude that ATC gave you, and you wouldn't climb any higher unless advised by ATC. Certainly, if you don't receive a climb from them after a little while, I'd would question it, but you wouldn't initiate a climb yourself unless a) you'd lost comms, or b) you were doing it under emergency authority.

[rtataryn]

Often times you can get a "Climb via the SID" instruction in an IFR clearance. If that's case, and you are not given any other specific altitude assignment as you stated, then begin each leg's climb after crossing the first fix for that labeled leg (you're not expected to be at that altitude by the time you cross the first fix).

Realize too that published altitudes on a SID or STAR aren’t MEAs in the en route sense of providing minimum altitudes for acceptable navigational signal coverage and obstacle clearance requirements. They are more related to traffic requirements.

[Caesar]

The steps you listed are correct ONLY if you've lost comms, and the MEA's are higher than the expected altitude. Otherwise, if expected alt is higher than MEA, you'd climb to the expected altitude after xx mins. The highest of (assigned, expected or published applies)

Keith, my response to this would be to say that many times I've heard PE controllers give the instruction: "climb via SID." That would lead me to another question, but Rod answered it before I even asked. Thanks to both of you for your responses.

One other question that pertains specifically to PE: The chart available in the I-05 training section is VNY1, the chart in the video is VNY9, and it looks like the current chart according to SkyVector is VNY2. I'm assuming the numerical portion is the "version number" (not sure what the correct term is) that gets changed when the old set of charts expire and the new ones become active. Looking at the charts for this particular DP, the different versions all appear to be identical. Since the chart you provide for the I-05 test is VNY1, should I file VNY1.DAG, or should I always use the most current version is (in this case VNY2.DAG), or does it make no difference as far as PE is concerned?

[RyanK]

Climb via SID doesn't involve the segment MEAs, only published crossing altitude/speed restrictions. There are none on the VNY2.DAG, so you shouldn't get a climb via SID instruction. Instead, like Keith suggested, it would be climb and maintain XXXX, expect XXXX X minutes after departure. CASTA and SUANA have crossing restrictions at 8300 and 3700 respectively, so you could be given climb via SID on a transition involving one of them. You would NOT want to level off at the MEAs on your way up.

When SIDs are updated the number gets incremented. You should file the current version, so VNY2.

[Caesar]

Thanks Ryan, I understand now.

[mmerelles]

there is another potential situation you may face during your IFR

During clearance, you are cleared for your SID, transition, etc. (clearance)
You get taxi authorization (ground)
You get takeoff authorization (tower)

once airborne tower ask you to contact departure
departure tells you climb xxxxx unrestricted

this means your are authorized to climb to such altitude (xxxxx) overriding all potential altitude restrictions on the sid between your present altitude until you reach the authorized altitude.

climb and descend clearances does not invite you to violate speed restrictions! They are still in place unless cancelled by the controller as well

[RyanK]

The "unrestricted" part isn't necessary. "Climb and maintain" alone eliminates the altitude restrictions. "Unrestricted" is what you get when controllers get tired of explaining that to pilots.

[Keith Smith]

I'm not a fan of "climb unrestricted" phraseology. It isn't by the book and it gets pilots thinking that if they DON'T hear 'unrestricted' that perhaps the restrictions are still in place. As a controller, I simply say "climb and maintain" (which cancels the restrictions) and then if the pilot questions it, then I provide the answer for them so they can learn from it and then sin no more.

"Climb unrestricted" just perpetuates the myth.