Welp, had my first bad flight.

[gsuoumu]

Was just starting to get a little confidence. Had completed CAT 1-9 with relative ease without screwing up anything royally. And then I got a rude awakening.

Landed at Fullerton after a successful CAT-9 and part of what I've done as I'm trying to not only learn comms and to also simulate realism is that I never want to "teleport" the plane - meaning my next flight always originates from where my last flight ended. Well I noticed the CAT-10 needed a departure from KTOA so I decided I'd go ahead and fly over there and then read up and make sure I'm fully prepared before I tackle the monster that is the CAT-10. Yea, big mistake. First I had the radios set to Comm-2 and was trying to talk to KFUL ground which I had set to Comm-1. Then I made a fool of myself every step along the way.

First I was concerned that I didn't have the frequency correct for SoCal Dep because there was a long silence after my initial call. So I called again. Then I hear the controller speaking to a different plane and when I find another pause I call again. Make it three times before Dep lets me know that he does hear me but I'm being impatient and not allowing IFR flights to call in clearances. Oops.

I requested flight following from ground because I thought I had recalled from one of Keith's YouTube VFR Workshops that if you were in contact with ATC as I was with SoCal Approach that they would coordinate your transitions through Delta and Charlie airspaces. So when SoCal Dep asks for my request, I mention that I'm making contact prior to entering the Class Deltas. At which point I get scolded at again because I should be contacting the individual towers for that clearance.

And then on my descent to TOA I illegally entered the KLGB airspace without contact.

Bucket full of fail as the kids say.

So I've obviously got some learnin' to do. This day was bound to come I suppose. But in the future for this type of flight, I'd actually have to be in contact with all the towers between KFUL - KTOA? So I'd go from KFUL - KSLI - KLGB - KTOA towers respectively? For the life of me I don't know why I didn't just use the flyways which are obviously designed to avoid this disaster. Lack of proper planning I guess.

Lesson(s) learned.

[rtataryn]

You don't have to be in contact with every tower along your route. You only have to be in contact with towers if you are in their airspace. If you go around or over them you don't have to talk to them. From KFUL to KTOA fly above 2600 MSL to stay out of KLGB and KSLI Delta airspace and you're fine. But stay below 5000 MSL to avoid the Bravo airspace above you. Easy peasy. Be sure to call KTOA tower a few miles BEFORE you enter their Delta. 7 or 8 miles from the airport is good.

[gsuoumu]

You don't have to be in contact with every tower along your route. You only have to be in contact with towers if you are in their airspace. If you go around or over them you don't have to talk to them. From KFUL to KTOA fly above 2600 MSL to stay out of KLGB and KSLI Delta airspace and you're fine. But stay below 5000 MSL to avoid the Bravo airspace above you. Easy peasy. Be sure to call KTOA tower a few miles BEFORE you enter their Delta. 7 or 8 miles from the airport is good.

Makes sense and I knew that. Was actually the plan all along. I think once I got up in the air and had my first comm screw-up I got frazzled and just became a screw-up machine after that.

[Marcus Becker]

Was just starting to get a little confidence. Had completed CAT 1-9 with relative ease without screwing up anything royally. And then I got a rude awakening.

Landed at Fullerton after a successful CAT-9 and part of what I've done as I'm trying to not only learn comms and to also simulate realism is that I never want to "teleport" the plane - meaning my next flight always originates from where my last flight ended. Well I noticed the CAT-10 needed a departure from KTOA so I decided I'd go ahead and fly over there and then read up and make sure I'm fully prepared before I tackle the monster that is the CAT-10. Yea, big mistake. First I had the radios set to Comm-2 and was trying to talk to KFUL ground which I had set to Comm-1. Then I made a fool of myself every step along the way.

First I was concerned that I didn't have the frequency correct for SoCal Dep because there was a long silence after my initial call. So I called again. Then I hear the controller speaking to a different plane and when I find another pause I call again. Make it three times before Dep lets me know that he does hear me but I'm being impatient and not allowing IFR flights to call in clearances. Oops.

I requested flight following from ground because I thought I had recalled from one of Keith's YouTube VFR Workshops that if you were in contact with ATC as I was with SoCal Approach that they would coordinate your transitions through Delta and Charlie airspaces. So when SoCal Dep asks for my request, I mention that I'm making contact prior to entering the Class Deltas. At which point I get scolded at again because I should be contacting the individual towers for that clearance.

And then on my descent to TOA I illegally entered the KLGB airspace without contact.

Bucket full of fail as the kids say.

So I've obviously got some learnin' to do. This day was bound to come I suppose. But in the future for this type of flight, I'd actually have to be in contact with all the towers between KFUL - KTOA? So I'd go from KFUL - KSLI - KLGB - KTOA towers respectively? For the life of me I don't know why I didn't just use the flyways which are obviously designed to avoid this disaster. Lack of proper planning I guess.

Lesson(s) learned.

Being the controller that handled your scenario, understand that there was no offense taken or intended in your contact with SoCal. Like I said last night, even though I did not answer your calls to SoCal, I had heard you but I was handling IFR operations that required readbacks. Those IFR operations will always take a priority over VFR because, let's face it, you're VFR. You can handle your own separation from airspace, obstacles, and other traffic as the flight following services are simply a courtesy. If ATC doesn't answer your request for VFR right away, relax for a minute and listen to what's going on with the frequency. Is the controller talking with a bit quicker pace? What instruction did ATC just give to another pilot? Was it an IFR clearance? Did it require a routing adjustments? Knowing what's going on might help in understanding why you aren't getting an answer right away.

Specifically regarding your situation and why I said what I said on frequency, firstly I may have missed your request for flight following but that still doesn't change the rules of VFR. By giving ATC a heads up that you are going to be crossing another Delta's airspace, it allows us to coordinate your request or get you to the appropriate frequency. So please, let us know if you plan on crossing through a Delta rather than just assuming it's no problem and we'll always just know you're going to do it. Calling SoCal on the border of LGB Delta airspace thinking you're automatically going to be cleared into the airspace is not ideal. Instead, if you aren't getting SoCal, call LGB tower while staying clear of the airspace or simply climb another couple hundred feet and continue on your merry way as Rod said.

Secondly, I most certainly did not scold you. I don't scold anybody. Ask my kids. I did, however, inform you of your mistake by descending into the LGB delta while being in contact with TOA tower. TOA doesn't own the LGB delta so you can not enter that airspace. If you feel you treated unfairly, I would ask that you don't take these matters to the forums. You and the network will get better results by contacting our operations team at Ops@pilotedge.net.

[wmburns]

First. Should we assume that the flight in question is VFR and you were attempting to get flight following?

So I can understand, what was your thought process to contact departure on the ground in a towered airport for VFR flight following?

Also wondering if you had the airport diagrams and airport information available to reference.

Skyvector airport information: https://skyvector.com/airport/FUL/Fulle ... al-Airport

Skyvector airport diagram: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1611/pdf/05136AD.PDF

Here's some information on how the PE radio system works and why you hear the controller but not the other pilots.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3681&p=38092&hilit= ... set#p38092

IMO I often learn more from the flights that didn't go well than I do from the ones that do go well.

Regarding being "scolded". IMO the PE controllers have to walk a line between being teachers and playing a role. Frankly I think it's better for them to first "play the role" and then be a teacher. In that vein when pilot makes a rookie mistake they should react/respond as would a REAL ATC controller. This provides a learning lesson.

Only after a pilot makes a request for more assistance should the PE controller shift into "teacher" mode.

[gsuoumu]

Was just starting to get a little confidence. Had completed CAT 1-9 with relative ease without screwing up anything royally. And then I got a rude awakening.

Landed at Fullerton after a successful CAT-9 and part of what I've done as I'm trying to not only learn comms and to also simulate realism is that I never want to "teleport" the plane - meaning my next flight always originates from where my last flight ended. Well I noticed the CAT-10 needed a departure from KTOA so I decided I'd go ahead and fly over there and then read up and make sure I'm fully prepared before I tackle the monster that is the CAT-10. Yea, big mistake. First I had the radios set to Comm-2 and was trying to talk to KFUL ground which I had set to Comm-1. Then I made a fool of myself every step along the way.

First I was concerned that I didn't have the frequency correct for SoCal Dep because there was a long silence after my initial call. So I called again. Then I hear the controller speaking to a different plane and when I find another pause I call again. Make it three times before Dep lets me know that he does hear me but I'm being impatient and not allowing IFR flights to call in clearances. Oops.

I requested flight following from ground because I thought I had recalled from one of Keith's YouTube VFR Workshops that if you were in contact with ATC as I was with SoCal Approach that they would coordinate your transitions through Delta and Charlie airspaces. So when SoCal Dep asks for my request, I mention that I'm making contact prior to entering the Class Deltas. At which point I get scolded at again because I should be contacting the individual towers for that clearance.

And then on my descent to TOA I illegally entered the KLGB airspace without contact.

Bucket full of fail as the kids say.

So I've obviously got some learnin' to do. This day was bound to come I suppose. But in the future for this type of flight, I'd actually have to be in contact with all the towers between KFUL - KTOA? So I'd go from KFUL - KSLI - KLGB - KTOA towers respectively? For the life of me I don't know why I didn't just use the flyways which are obviously designed to avoid this disaster. Lack of proper planning I guess.

Lesson(s) learned.

Being the controller that handled your scenario, understand that there was no offense taken or intended in your contact with SoCal. Like I said last night, even though I did not answer your calls to SoCal, I had heard you but I was handling IFR operations that required readbacks. Those IFR operations will always take a priority over VFR because, let's face it, you're VFR. You can handle your own separation from airspace, obstacles, and other traffic as the flight following services are simply a courtesy. If ATC doesn't answer your request for VFR right away, relax for a minute and listen to what's going on with the frequency. Is the controller talking with a bit quicker pace? What instruction did ATC just give to another pilot? Was it an IFR clearance? Did it require a routing adjustments? Knowing what's going on might help in understanding why you aren't getting an answer right away.

Specifically regarding your situation and why I said what I said on frequency, firstly I may have missed your request for flight following but that still doesn't change the rules of VFR. By giving ATC a heads up that you are going to be crossing another Delta's airspace, it allows us to coordinate your request or get you to the appropriate frequency. So please, let us know if you plan on crossing through a Delta rather than just assuming it's no problem and we'll always just know you're going to do it. Calling SoCal on the border of LGB Delta airspace thinking you're automatically going to be cleared into the airspace is not ideal. Instead, if you aren't getting SoCal, call LGB tower while staying clear of the airspace or simply climb another couple hundred feet and continue on your merry way as Rod said.

All of this is understood. Thanks for the guidance.

Secondly, I most certainly did not scold you. I don't scold anybody. Ask my kids. I did, however, inform you of your mistake by descending into the LGB delta while being in contact with TOA tower. TOA doesn't own the LGB delta so you can not enter that airspace. If you feel you treated unfairly, I would ask that you don't take these matters to the forums. You and the network will get better results by contacting our operations team at Ops@pilotedge.net.

I hope you didn't take anything I said here as taking any type of offense to how you handled the situation. I certainly did not. I was 135% in the wrong and I thought you handled it very well. Maybe "scold" is the wrong word and I should have said "corrected". I wasn't coming here to call out ATC or complain about ATC. I was coming here to share my experience, get some guidance, and learn. *I* was the idiot last night, not anyone else.

I even recognized last night that you were super busy. I hated that I added to that by being a dunce. Apologies all around.

Todd

[gsuoumu]

First. Should we assume that the flight in question is VFR and you were attempting to get flight following?

So I can understand, what was your thought process to contact departure on the ground in a towered airport for VFR flight following?

Also wondering if you had the airport diagrams and airport information available to reference.

Skyvector airport information: https://skyvector.com/airport/FUL/Fulle ... al-Airport

Skyvector airport diagram: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1611/pdf/05136AD.PDF

Here's some information on how the PE radio system works and why you hear the controller but not the other pilots.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3681&p=38092&hilit= ... set#p38092

IMO I often learn more from the flights that didn't go well than I do from the ones that do go well.

To clarify, I had worked out flight following with Fullerton ground prior to taxi. Was given SoCal Dep as the departure frequency during clearance.

I had the Skyvector LAX-Fly chart and both airport diagrams at my disposal.

I think the major failure here was not clearly thinking about what the best course of action was here. A direct flight was probably pretty silly for someone with my low-level of experience. I should've used the Fly-route and avoided the other deltas altogether. I had planned to just stay between the D and B shelves but just screwed up flying the plane on descent.

[Marcus Becker]

No problem. We get called names pretty regularly so we can get a little twitchy when it looks like we're getting called out. There is no need to apologize. Keep at it.

[Ryan B]

Keep pestering Marcus - make him earn his keep!!! Make him work!!

[Keith Smith]

If you have established radar services with an approach controller, they will handle your transitions of Class Delta airspace. However, if you are approaching a Delta and have not established radar services with an approach controller a reasonable amount of time PRIOR to that point, you can't contact approach in lieu of contacting the Delta tower controller.

In other words, if you're receiving flight following well before the Delta is a factor, then you're fine (unless the approach controller specifically tells you to remain outside of that Delta), but if you're coming up on a Delta, then calling approach in the hopes that they'll not only radar identify you, but also coordinate the delta transition at the last second is a little beyond the scope of what's reasonable.

This is a great lesson. I just did a flight today from N07-ASH where I literally couldn't get a word in with the approach controller on 127.60 (the local freq for NY Approach) to request flight following. I calmly listened in, avoided the Bravo and nearby Delta airspace, flew along for 30nm and then figured I would just try the next sector that I'd normally be speaking to at that point.

Realizing that flight following is a workload-permitting service is a great take away for this situation, along with the realization that you need a plan B for how to handle the airspace if you can't get radar services from Socal (fly above the Deltas, or call tower for a transition).