Proceed direct?

[NM Doug]

I was flying IFR from KSNA to KCNO, with a filed route of SLI V8 PDZ (not counting the initial heading from KSNA). A few minutes after departure, ATC gave me an instruction to "proceed direct PDZ, rejoin V8." Does this mean, "skip SLI - instead intercept V8 and follow it to PDZ" as I think it does? (PDZ is the probably endpoint of V8 for this route of flight, and I don't have GPS, so I filed as /A.)

If so, is there an intercept angle ATC expects me to fly? I realized I was waffling and flying a narrow intercept - maybe 20 degrees - and I was starting to correct to a heftier angle when ATC (possibly also wondering what I was doing ) gave me a vector and "upon receiving PDZ, proceed direct PDZ."

- Doug

[Orest Skrypuch]

proceed direct PDZ, rejoin V8.

To me this would mean proceed (now) on a direct track to PDZ VOR. Once at PDZ VOR, reestablish yourself on V8, and continue.


[ATC] gave me a vector and "upon receiving PDZ, proceed direct PDZ."

I would presume, from your radar shown track, that ATC was thinking that you could not yet tune PDZ VOR (or just hadn't yet), because you were not tracking direct to it. With your being "/A", ATC then provided you a vector to the PDZ VOR, in anticipation that once you tuned PDZ, you would proceed direct.

* Orest

[Steven Winslow]

I agree with Orest. That's exactly what I would do.

[NM Doug]

What confused me was the "rejoin V8" part, because if I went direct to PDZ, I would be done with V8 - the next step would be an approach to KCNO from PDZ.

I think, because I couldn't work out the "rejoin V8" part in a way that made sense to me, I was tempted instead to "intercept V8, proceed direct PDZ." But as I wrote earlier, I only started a half-hearted intercept... (Obviously, I should have asked for clarification, instead of wondering, wandering, and trying to sort it out at 100kts!)

- Doug

[Kyle Rodgers]

It might help to just look at it in order, despite the confusing terminology (I would've said "join" instead of "rejoin," but the latter may be a habit when vectoring people off-route and back on for traffic, etc).

The first instruction was direct, so proceed direct to PDZ, everything thereafter would be after going direct to PDZ.

[Keith Smith]

Doug,

That's an interesting situation. I would've expected the controller to say "proceed direct PDZ" and leave it at that, OR give a heading to intercept V8 prior to PDZ.

Given the instruction you received, I would've queried it and said, "Paradise is the last waypoint on our cleared route at the moment, verify I should join V8 after PDZ?"

That will remove any and all ambiguity. The controller will either re-issue the instruction, sans V8, or he'll issue more clear instructions for his intentions after PDZ. As you said, joining V8 after PDZ wouldn't make a lot of sense in this scenario.

Don't be shy about asking for clarification. That's the most important thing to take away from this.

[NM Doug]

Thanks, all, for the input. I like your formulation of the query, Keith. I find it interesting to see the "trajectory" of my confusion in this brief section of the flight - it seems like a micro-version of many typical miscommunication incidents. I will indeed be practicing getting clarification when I need it!

- Doug

[Andrew Doubleday]

Doug,


You caught me on an off moment. I intended to clear you direct Seal Beach to join V8 and somehow ended saying Paradise to join V8... Sorry for the confusion.

I realized a couple of minutes after I issued it that I had said Paradise (referencing your ground track on the radar) and just decided to keep you going that way since traffic was no factor into John Wayne and it was more direct for you anyhow. Feel free to ask if you're confused, though. It was a goof on my part.


Regards,

[NM Doug]

Hi Andrew - There's certainly no need to apologize for the confusion - I really appreciate how much I learn with the PE flying environment coupled together with this discussion forum - great stuff!

I know it's part of what PE offers commercial clients, but I'd be OK with some intentional, pre-planned ATC goofs on occasion. Of course, I get nervous just suggesting that.... maybe they should only be on certain days/times, by PE NOTAM. Or an event like the events we've had so far - maybe on April 1st?

- Doug