VFR Departure From KVNY And Dealing With KBUR Class C

[Steve Anderson]

So yesterday I flew VFR out of KVNY and it was properly noted by your most knowledgeable ATC controller that I had busted KBUR's class C airspace. Shortly after departure from KVNY the tower controller handed me off to the departure controller. While with the departure controller I climbed above 3000' entering KBUR's class C airspace. Since KVNY clearance delivery had not issued me an altitude restriction before departing KVNY and since I was in radio communication with flight following with the KVNY departure controller I presumed I could transition KBUR's class C airspace. In retrospect I could have remained below 3000' until clear of the KBUR class C airspace. But I wanted to climb quickly to cruise altitude for my anticipated KLAX class B VFR transition. So, should I have requested the KBUR class C transition from KVNY clearance delivery, tower or departure control or a frequency change to socal approach on 134.2 or contacted socal approach on 134.2 while on the ground? Thank you in advance for your advice.

[Keith Smith]

This is odd. We normally see cases where pilots enter the Class C while still talking to VNY tower, which causes an issue, but if you were indeed talking to Socal when this happened, then I fail to see the problem. You met the communication requirements prior to entering the airspace, so unless the controller specifically told you remain outside the Class, then you were good to go. Do you have a timestamp within the recording? Is this your flight? http://peaware.pilotedge.net/flight.cfm?id=25573

You can setup the transition in one of two ways:
1) you could ask the ground controller for flight following to your destination (in which case, include your destination and intended altitude),
or
2) when exiting the VNY Class D, or if the tower says "frequency change approved" prior to leaving the Delta, then you can cold-call Socal on 134.20 and make the request with them.

[julio.elizalde]

Hi Steve,

According to the AIM - 3-2-4:
3. Aircraft departing secondary controlled airports will not receive Class C services until they have been radar identified and two‐way communications have been established with the Class C airspace facility.

Although I was not controlling and we can't review the recordings from yesterday, it might have been that you were already climbing through the outer Burbank Class C shelf before you had been properly radar identified. Do you remember if you were already above 3000 when you called up the departure radar controller?

[Keith Smith]

"receiving Class C service" and being able to enter the airspace are not the same thing, though. It is not a bust to enter Class C prior to being identified as long as communications have been established. ATC knows this and if it's an issue, they'd tell you to remain outside the Charlie until they could identify and separate you from IFR. His original post said

...since I was in radio communication with flight following with the KVNY departure controller

[Pieces]

I believe the moment in question happened here: http://www.pilotedge.net/recordings/hou ... _17510.mp3 at 1:07.

[Keith Smith]

Ahh, problem solved. Steve, your original message implied that you were in communication with the departure controller. That's not the case. You established communication upon reaching 4100, after you entered the Class C. You had not met the requirements to enter Class C.

The correct procedure would've been to remain below or otherwise outside the Class C airspace until you have established ATC with the controlling agency (Socal Departure). Being in touch with VNY tower doesn't cut it. Think of it this way...VNY tower only owns the VNY tower airspace. If you entered the Class C and nearly hit a jet arrival into Burbank because you weren't yet talking to the controller who worked the deps/arrivals at BUR, then the system simply wouldn't scale. Hence, the need to be in touch not just with any old controller....but with the controller who has jurisdiction for the airspace. Generally, that will be Socal Approach. ATC was correct on this one...I'm somewhat relieved to say

[Steve Anderson]

Yep, I climbed above 3000' while with KVNY Tower and had reached 4100' when I contacted departure. Reporting myself to the FAA. Is this the correct procedure? Lol
So if I had stayed at or below 3000' with tower, then upon contacting departure and establishing radio communications with departure, could I have climbed above 3000' entering KBUR's class C without advising departure or getting a verbal clearance to transition at that point?
This is an example of many as to why Pilotedge is such a great learning tool. I was still trying to master VOR navigation through KLAX VFR transitions on this flight and ended up learning more than I set out to do. Thanks fellas.

[Keith Smith]

Steve, I'll make sure we pass along that pilots can pick up F/F on ground freqs at Class D fields. The rest stands, though (I suspect we posted at the same time).

[Pieces]

Thanks for posting this. Learned something today. I was under the impression that communication with ATC (any ATC, especially since you had flight following) was all that was needed. But after this discussion, and looking up the applicable FAR (91.130):

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

I probably would have been busted for this sometime in the near future. Thanks!

[Keith Smith]

Reece, it's more muddy regarding Class D transitions while you're talking to approach, more on that another time. For this case, though, Class C transition while talking to a satellite tower, there's no grey area.