Picking up IFR clearance while in flight?

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Denny22
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:24 pm

Picking up IFR clearance while in flight?

Post by Denny22 »

Keith,

During my real IFR training flight today, we took off VFR and planned to go shoot some approaches over at KRCE. Well just after we took off and climbing to 3500 we had to ask to pick up an IFR clearance. If I wanted to practice this how do I go about letting the controllers know that I am planning on doing this? Is it appropriate to put this in the comments box while filing a flight plan? I think I have asked you this before but wanted to double check. Cause there was some ATC terminology used in a way today that I was unfamiliar with and I need to practice this. I did great flying the airplane but my instructor had to take over doing most of the radio calls for me. It didn't help either that the Approach controller at OKC was super busy and was talking super fast. He even forgot about us at one point :(.

Also I tried to contact Eric Melon again this past Monday, I have not heard anything.

Hope all is going well!
Denny
twharrell
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: Picking up IFR clearance while in flight?

Post by twharrell »

Denny,

I know this post us a month old, but I would just file a regular flight plan, indicating your departure and arrival airports. Then state your intention to file IFR once airborne in the remarks section, so the controller knows what to expect.

Todd
Regards,

Todd
Keith Smith
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Location: Pompton Plains, NJ
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Re: Picking up IFR clearance while in flight?

Post by Keith Smith »

Denny,

I apologize, I read this, intended to reply when I could, but then it disappeared from the 'unread posts' list and I forgot about it. As long as you'll be picking up the clearance not too far from the origin airport from the flight plan, I would file an IFR flight plan from origin airport to the destination airport, as Todd described, minus the remarks. Obtaining your clearance in the air is pretty standard when departing VFR from non-towered airports. If it's IMC, then you need to obtain the clearance and release on the ground, either through a phone call to the National Clearance Delivery line, a phone call to the TRACON/ARTCC, through a GCO or RCO.

An exception to this would be if you're launching into extremely busy airspace. I've heard people get blasted by New York Approach for requesting their clearance in the air from airports that have a working GCO, and the controllers don't have time to issue long winded full route clearances (which is what happens when people try to file direct here on the east coast, rather than the preferred route). If it's clear and a million, AND the controller is going to be busy, then I would request your clearance while on the ground and coordinate a VFR departure to activate in the air. That way, you get your clearance on the ground, depart VFR, you call approach (who is expecting you), they radar ID you and either have you maintain VFR until IFR separation standards are achieved, or they convert you over to IFR there and then (either with non-standard phraseology such as "consider yourself IFR at this time", or an IFR instruction such as "climb and maintain 5000").

Here's an example of picking up a clearance in the air enroute to ATL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9o1S5V9Qc

What was the phraseology that he used which caused an issue when you were picking up your clearance? It's normally fairly straight forward.

One last consideration, if you file on the ground, then depart and fly a considerable distance before picking up your clearance, there's a chance that the controller won't have your strip because your strip is only sent to the first facility along the route of flight. It's only if the plan is activated that the strip then starts getting forwarded to all the enroute facilities for your flight.
Denny22
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:24 pm

Re: Picking up IFR clearance while in flight?

Post by Denny22 »

Thanks Guys,

After departing KPWA (Wiley Post) we had told departure that we wanted to go over to KRCE (Page) to do some practice approaches, and they cleared us for that and knew what we were doing. So enroute is when we had to go IFR, so we called them up, and I don't remember exactly what was said so I will do by best at explaining what went through my head on communications. After the request, I think the controller asked us where will we terminate, and we told him KPWA (Wiley Post), I believe his next call to us was climb and maintain 4000 cleared direct Wiley Post. I remember in my head saying, but we don't want to go to Wiley Post, we want to go to Page to shoot approaches, and then head to Wiley Post. The other thing that confused me was that he did not give us a heading to fly. My instructor later explained to me that when you pick up an IFR clearance just like on the ground the 1st thing they give you is, you are cleared to your final destination, and that was what he was giving us. Is this correct?

Other question is, what if you are filed for a long VFR flight you encounter IMC and need to switch to IFR flight plan, is this ok and appropriate, or is it frowned on?? If it's ok, can we practice this on PE?

Keith, what are you using to shoot your video and recording your radio calls? I would like to start doing that on my flights, love watching those video's, it never gets old for me :)

Thanks
Denny
Keith Smith
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Re: Picking up IFR clearance while in flight?

Post by Keith Smith »

Here's some info about how the vids were shot, including equipment, cables, adapters, etc. It's really straight forward:
http://keith.tristesse.com/page/about_videos

"Cleared direct Willey Post Airport, climb and maintain 4000" gives you what you need. If you're heading the other way at the time and he needs you to turn for traffic or because he's running out of airspace, the next you think might hear is "fly hdg xxx, proceed direct Wiley Post when able," but you shouldn't expect to hear that every time. You're fine without it, you would just dial GPS direct to that airport (he won't issue direct if you don't have RNAV capability, or shouldn't at least. If he does...and you don't have it, then you can say, "unable, we're /A" or /U).

Regarding the fact that he cleared you to an airport other than the one you wanted, don't let that rattle you. It can be tough for them to keep track of the fields you want to go to when shooting lots of approaches (approach TRAINING is pretty far removed from real world IFR flying in that regard) at different fields. No worries, though, just say, "negative, we need IFR to Page."

Any time ATC gives you something other than what you need, don't be alarmed. It doesn't always mean you can't have it or you'll be in trouble for asking for something else. Just politely ask for what you need and see what happens. In the case of a clearance limit being wrong, that's going to get fixed 100% of the time. Now, if he clears you there via a route you weren't expecting and you want direct, you can ask, but in those cases, don't be shocked if he says no.

Picking up a clearance in the air is not much different than doing it on the ground, other than the fact that you're already radar identified, so you're not going to get a new squawk (typically). In your case, you were getting a clearance limit and route all in one phrase, "cleared direct Wiley Post." If the routing was more interesting, it would've been "Cleared to Wiley Post via [full route clearance, whatever it is], maintain 4000"

When you ask about switching from VFR to IFR...you said, "say you were filed for a long VFR flight..." and I'm going to stop you right there. That you have filed a VFR flight plan doesn't matter....at all....to anyone....ever.....except Flight Service. So, let's take that out of the picture and start again :) Let's change it to, "I'm on a long VFR flight and I'm receiving advisories from ATC..." and now you want to swap to IFR. It's absolutely appropriate and can go one of 3 ways, from easiest to hardest. I've hit at 3, btw, and they are:

1) "sure....cleared to [destination] via [route] maintain [altitude]"

2) or, "verify you're instrument rated and the plane is certificated for instrument flight" "Affirmative" "Great, for the tapes, say first and last name, address, fuel and souls." (something along those lines). You read it back, quickly (they're not listening, they just need it on tapes if you go down), then you get the spiel from DOOR #1.

3) "unable, contact Flight Service, file with them and call me back." (which is a pain in the air, but doable)

I've had #3 happen precisely once. Truthfully, I don't think you're likely to see #3 very often (if anyone else has had it happen, post here and share the circumstances, please!). In that case, it was a training environment and the guy wanted to prove a point that if you're going to do anything other than local approaches, you might want to have a flight plan filed back to your final destination if it's outside of the facility. In my case, I had filed from Allentown to Lincoln Park, shot a bunch o' approaches at Allentown, then asked for a clearance back to Lincoln Park (literally 15 mins away, but still a different facility), and was told #3. The instructor I was with said he'd never heard it in several years of flying. No matter, I filed with FSS in the air, it was good experience. I have a kneeboard (that I don't use) which has a plate on the front showing a few key pieces of info...and one is the elements of a flight plan, so you can read it in the correct order to ATC or Flight Service. I've had to use it a couple of times.

And lastly, yes, you can practice this on PE, absolutely...just pick up flight following and then at some point, ask for IFR. I do it all the time for practice here. Expect Door #1 if you're just asking for a short range IFR clearance. If you need something much longer and it isn't covered by a TEC route, they might ask what route you had in mind.
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