Flight plan KSNA - KRNM

[mikealphacharlie]

I am considering how to plan an IFR flight from John Wayne to Ramona and could use some input on the altitude aspects.
My proposed route is KSNA V23 OCN V208 JLI and then the VOR/DME approach to Ramona. See link:
http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.42088920301 ... :A.K2.KRNM

The chart shows the MEA for V208 as being 7700, so I assume I would have to plan for 9000 since I am eastbound. The VOR/DME approach plate says I have to be at or above 7700 at Julian (JLI).

In a lost comms situation I'm guessing you would have to arrive at JLI at 9000, make the 180 as described on the approach, and then start the decent profile. My problem with this is that you have to loose the best part of 8000 feet in the space of 15 nm. This seems way too steep. How would this situation be managed?

Secondly, I'm guessing that in reality you would be vectored from V208 on to the approach long before arriving at JLI. In which case, what would the altitude profile look like?
Or maybe I've totally misunderstood something vital!
Steve

[Brian Z]

You are correct on the filed altitude of 090. If you lost comms while inbound to JULIAN all you would need to do is dial in 7600 on the transponder and descend in the course reversal hold as depicted to 077. Since you would be doing the full procedure approach at the point ATC would expect and you are required to perform the course reversal hold even if you are already at an altitude of 077. You would want to anyway because the turn from V208 to an inbound course of 234 is around 150 degrees. So basically you would have three minutes to descend 1300 feet. You should have no problem getting down and established on the inbound course before crossing JULIAN the second time.

Once ATC turns you off of V208 they will tell you vectors to final and descend you to the MVA (Minimum Vector Altitude) for that sector somewhere between 067 and 051 with a course to intercept the final between FEXDE and RICCE. It is a little more complicated in terms of decision making if you lose comms after to turn off the airway because you do not want to go blundering around in IMC with all those rocks around. So you are faced with two choices. Continue with the last assigned vector and navigate to join the 234R and execute the approach as normal or climb to the MSA of 078 and execute a full procedure approach. If you are in VMC than it is much easier of a decision. If you are VMC than the first option could your choice. If you are IMC than we need to look at the lost comm procedures a little closer. I like to use the acronyms AVE F and MEA for lost comms. AVE F is used for coarse and stands for Assigned, Vectored, Expected and Filed and MEA is used for altitude and stands for Minimum IFR altitude(this is the important one here), Expected and Assigned. With the altitudes in lost comms we need to use what is the highest of those three options. Heading is easy because you were given a vector. Your assigned altitude would be somewhere between 051 and 067, but is that the highest altitude of our three choices? No, the MSA is 078 and you would be expected to climb to that altitude. Now that the altitude is figured out how do you get down to the airport. Again, you have two choices. Since you were given vectors you could intercept the 234R and continue the approach. However, going to your first concern, the descent profile will be pretty steep. The other option and best in my opinion would be climb to the MSA, intercept the JLI 234R inbound to the VOR and then perform the full procedure approach. That way gives you time to take a breath, clean out your shorts and maybe fix the problem without having to worry about all the hard unforgiving rocks in the area.

I hope that helps

Brian

[mikealphacharlie]

Thanks for your extremely helpful and thought provoking reply. As always, there is far more to consider than first meets the eye!
Steve

[Keith Smith]

The TEC calls for 7, so that's what you're likely to get for the cruise (and also what you should file). Remember, the altitude you file is for your FIRST cruise altitude, not necessarily the altitude you want for the latter portion of the flight. Assuming you were actually cleared to 7k for the cruise for most of the flight, and then lost comms, you would climb to highest altitude among the cleared altitude, an altitude you were told to expect, an enroute altitude, or your filed altitude. In this case, the MEA would be the highest, so you'd climb to 7k.

In normal ops where you don't lose comms, I've worked many people on this route, and I just climb them from 7k to 8k once they're on V208, sometime at or before BONDO.

ATC can assign altitudes that are 'wrong' for direction of flight.

[mikealphacharlie]

Thanks Keith - I have an ancillary question. The approach path brings you into the airport environment on a heading of 234. Supposing that RWY 27 is active, what instruction would you expect to get from the Tower? The angle is very tricky to join the left traffic pattern directly, so perhaps an overhead join from the dead side?
Steve

[Keith Smith]

yes, essentially an overhead. there is a diagram in the aim or instrument flying handbook that shows the circling techniques.