BURN27 question

[sellener777]

WHP-CRQ /A equipped

I filed BURN27

I was given the rw 30 odp VNY then a/f.....4000 9000 after 10

What is expected after VNY?

I asked clearance for clarification, and they said to work it out with departure but they believe the routing they gave was accurate/appropriate.

Question pertains to lost comms mainly and where to go after vny and what assures terrain clearance.

Second question....

Atc assigned ODP which involves a climb to 4500. Atc assigned 4000 after assigning odp. Lost comms/delay in radar contact i would climb to 4500 per odp. I assume they give 4000 and expect u at 4000 not 4500 based on radar contact soon after departure. Is my thought process correct here? Is there any phraseology involved with odp's? "Climb via ODP except maintain 4000" for example.

Thanks,
-erik

[Ryan B]

I guess the VNY295R to TWINE? (I'm using skyvector here to draw a line from VNY to TWINE)

Hmmm if they assigned 4000 I would only climb to 4000.

[Keith Smith]

The "Climb via..." phraseology is for SIDs only. It does not include ODPs.

I've discussed this with Peter at length and he's going to weigh in on it shortly. The short version is, under normal ops, Socal is going to climb you as soon as they get hold of you, so it's largely moot (from an altitude perspective). The clearance itself is contradictory to AIM 5-2-8 which states that ATC shouldn't issue an altitude below the ODP altitude unless you're above the MVA at which time the ODP can be cancelled. Well, the MVA is 5k just NW of VNY, so it's a real mess. Basically, the rubber really hits the road here during lost comms. This is one of the few cases where I would climb under emergency authority because waiting the additional 5-10 minutes could have consequences. It's unclear to me what the MIA/MEA would be considered to be while on the ODP. The MIA is an important number since, under lost comms, you climb to the highest of assigned, expected or the MEA/MIA.

Unfortunately, we have implemented exactly what the real world LOA between WHP ATCT and Socal TRACON calls for, so this 'broken' in the real world. For now, I would just plan for the worst in terms of lost comms and don't sweat it otherwise.

The routing should've been "VNY RWY 30 departure procedure, vectors TWINE, then as filed..."

The specific nature of the vectors (ie, to join, for example, the LAX R-323 to TWINE) would be furnished by Socal in the air, not necessarily included on the ground.

[wmburns]

A couple of weeks back I had nearly the same question come up. IE, given a departure ODP with a 4500 climb altitude where the initial ATC climb was to 4000.

When I questioned clearance delivery about this was told to use 4000 in the ODP instead of 4500. At the time, it didn't seem right to me. But it wasn't worth asking a bunch of questions at the time and I figured I would be given a higher altitude just as soon as radar contact was made anyway.

Similar to some of the questions asked in:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4720

From a "human engineering" point of view, asking a GA pilot to know enough about the esoteric parts of the regulations to over ride an ATC directive may not be the best design. The lost comms situation has got to increase workload and thus increase the chances of making a mistake.

But if the procedures are the same in real life, then kudos to PE. Talk about realism.

<popcorn coming out>Is there a small chance that your PE student pilots are actually learning something here? Even more importantly applying lessons learned to different situations to reach new conclusions?

[Peter Grey]

WHP is a mess for a lot of reasons.

In reality what is going to happen is as soon as you are airborne and above 3000' you're going to be vectored away from BUR and VNY.

The reason they (real world SCT) issue 4000 and the ODP is that they can't issue a heading off the ground there, and 3000 isn't a safe altitude to level off at for very long. (4 isn't much better honestly).

This has the obvious implication of being wrong on many levels and all of the questions brought up are very very good.

I tend to agree with KS. This is a be very careful situation. If I was in IMC I would be very very concerned if I leveled off at 4000' without being vectored off the ODP. Honestly if I level off at 4000 on the ODP in IMC I'll be calling approach immediately. VMC as long as I see the terrain I'd be happy.

Lost comms it's a climb to 4500 immediately without any level off at 4000'. 4500' is a safe altitude until VNY. From there it's climb via MEA on course (if higher) until my expect time expires and I climb to cruise altitude.

For the record this is how the real world WHP handles IFR departures (I just listened to some recordings and reviewed the real world procedures to verify this).

Honestly I think it's a bad situation waiting to happen, but that's we have to work with.

[sellener777]

Thx Keith, Peter.....

Its amazing how much Ive learned, and how much my knowledge of the IFR system has benefited from PE.

[Peter Grey]

I want to follow up on this question as we've done some more research into it.

We contacted our sources at SCT and determined that they figured out that this is a problem and have solved it. We've taken their solution and implemented it here and we should no longer see this problem on the network.

Specifically WHP departures will now be issued an initial altitude of 5000'.

[sellener777]

Thx for the follow up!