Quick questions. But before I ask, let me say how thrilled I am to be a member of the PilotEdge community. Nowhere can one receive this type of training and, take my word for it please, this type of training is gold. Now on to my question after a short background:
1. I am preparing for my V-3 and like to fly the different routes with different scenarios. Today, this afternoon California time, I decided to fly from Paso Robles (KPRB to John Wayne via the Hollywood Park Route.
2. Since KPRB is out of the coverage area, I decided to still take off from Paso Robles, fly toward Santa Barbara, and once in the coverage area, contact Santa Barbara Approach and ask for flight following.
3. I contacted Santa Barbara Approach, told then I was 218JD, 9,500, 30 miles north of San Luis Obispo, VFR to John Wayne requesting flight following and a Hollywood Park transition though Los Angeles Bravo airspace.
4. Santa Barbara Approach gave me a squawk code, established radar contact, and all was well.
5. Sometime later I was handed off to the Los Angeles Center. Los Angles Center established radar contact and I thought I was off and running.
6. Closer to VNY, I asked Center if I was cleared into Class Bravo airspace. Center replied that they did not have the authority to issue Class Bravo clearance and then terminated flight following. That is perfectly fine. I am thankful for flight following but realize it is provided as a courtesy only.
7. I contacted SOCAL Approach and asked for flight following, VFR to John Wayne and Class Bravo transition via the Hollywood Park route and soon thereafter, I was on my may to John Wayne with a beautiful flight under my belt.
Question: Why could not Los Angles Center work my class Bravo approval? I know that they are not authorized to grant it but they certainly can call whoever to get it for me. When I fly for real from CA51 and need to fly to San Carlos, Oakland Center always gets my class bravo approval for me. What is the difference? Is the fact that Los Angeles Center is busier? Or, as usual, am I missing something.
Paso Robles KPRB to KSAN: LA Center vs Oakland Center
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Jim DeWilder
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:28 pm
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TheMadDocMD
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:42 pm
Re: Paso Robles KPRB to KSAN: LA Center vs Oakland Center
Hi Jim,
I am sure one of the guys like Peter or Keith will respond to this but just wanted to give my two cents; (hopefully I am not saying the wrong thing - disclaimer)
SoCal airspace and NorCal airspace are quite a different dynamic to start; in reference to you saying Oakland Center gets you a bravo entry in real world coming from CA51 - Oakland Center/NorCal Approach airspace share a very very close airspace boundary line near the SFO Bravo, now I am not sure of the extent but I could see them developing a LOA (Letter of Agreement between two different facilities) that upon some certain parameters to issue class bravo entrance permission or the controller just is feeling nice and calls ahead for you due to the proximately of the handoff . In terms to SoCal Airspace, there is a fair distance between the Los Angeles Center / SoCal approach airspace line and the bravo that there wouldn't be any reason why Los Angeles Center would give you the bravo transition clearance as the bravo is not their control.
In Real World, my personal experiences are the last thing controllers want to do is get in each other's ear to coordinate something that isn't needed right away / required. I listened to your audio of your flight and the Center controller kept trying to explain you still had awhile (40ish miles) until the next airspace (SoCal Approach) to make that request but it appeared your connection was having problems as you were coming through broken on the recordings. LA Center terminated radar services I believe because of the com issue/workload, but normally if you would have just remained on flight following that handoff would have happened appropriately to SoCal Approach where you could have made the bravo request.
Now personally, here is my three cents (yup I found another penny
), you informed Santa Barbara approach you wanted the Hollywood Bravo transition; That facility isn't near/the same as the facility controlling your request (in fact it's quite a distance from) I appreciate your desire to let the controller know your request as far as possible but unless your usually dealing with the actual controller (while it might be here on PilotEdge but simulated not to be) or maybe the neighbor or same facility (ie one sector of LA center but your request is going to affect another sector of LA Center) , it usually doesn't make it down the game of "pass the request" with handoffs. It would be like telling a controller in San Francisco that you wanted a visual approach into John Wayne, The controller could notate it in your flight progress strip however the moment you go to a facility that does not use the flight progress strip or just misses it - your request is 'dead' and your going to need to restate it when you realize that the actual John Wayne sector SoCal approach controller has no idea you requested something with a controller all the way back in San Francisco for his airspace.
One thing I really enjoy about this network is how hard everyone tries to do their best and the desire to learn from every moment. I have moments on here they I go duh I should know that all the time but it's fun at the same time
Hopefully I didn't butcher this bad for you, just trying to help
I am sure one of the guys like Peter or Keith will respond to this but just wanted to give my two cents; (hopefully I am not saying the wrong thing - disclaimer)
SoCal airspace and NorCal airspace are quite a different dynamic to start; in reference to you saying Oakland Center gets you a bravo entry in real world coming from CA51 - Oakland Center/NorCal Approach airspace share a very very close airspace boundary line near the SFO Bravo, now I am not sure of the extent but I could see them developing a LOA (Letter of Agreement between two different facilities) that upon some certain parameters to issue class bravo entrance permission or the controller just is feeling nice and calls ahead for you due to the proximately of the handoff . In terms to SoCal Airspace, there is a fair distance between the Los Angeles Center / SoCal approach airspace line and the bravo that there wouldn't be any reason why Los Angeles Center would give you the bravo transition clearance as the bravo is not their control.
In Real World, my personal experiences are the last thing controllers want to do is get in each other's ear to coordinate something that isn't needed right away / required. I listened to your audio of your flight and the Center controller kept trying to explain you still had awhile (40ish miles) until the next airspace (SoCal Approach) to make that request but it appeared your connection was having problems as you were coming through broken on the recordings. LA Center terminated radar services I believe because of the com issue/workload, but normally if you would have just remained on flight following that handoff would have happened appropriately to SoCal Approach where you could have made the bravo request.
Now personally, here is my three cents (yup I found another penny
), you informed Santa Barbara approach you wanted the Hollywood Bravo transition; That facility isn't near/the same as the facility controlling your request (in fact it's quite a distance from) I appreciate your desire to let the controller know your request as far as possible but unless your usually dealing with the actual controller (while it might be here on PilotEdge but simulated not to be) or maybe the neighbor or same facility (ie one sector of LA center but your request is going to affect another sector of LA Center) , it usually doesn't make it down the game of "pass the request" with handoffs. It would be like telling a controller in San Francisco that you wanted a visual approach into John Wayne, The controller could notate it in your flight progress strip however the moment you go to a facility that does not use the flight progress strip or just misses it - your request is 'dead' and your going to need to restate it when you realize that the actual John Wayne sector SoCal approach controller has no idea you requested something with a controller all the way back in San Francisco for his airspace.One thing I really enjoy about this network is how hard everyone tries to do their best and the desire to learn from every moment. I have moments on here they I go duh I should know that all the time but it's fun at the same time
Hopefully I didn't butcher this bad for you, just trying to help
MD
Real World Controller
FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate - Sacramento, CA
FAA Certificated Aircraft Dispatcher
Real World Controller
FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate - Sacramento, CA
FAA Certificated Aircraft Dispatcher
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Jim DeWilder
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:28 pm
Re: Paso Robles KPRB to KSAN: LA Center vs Oakland Center
Hi Mark,
Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond – especially listening to the tapes. That actually was a long flight. This is the reason I like to mix things up a lot before I take any test – I put myself in a variety of scenarios where I really goof up and learn so much. I probably will have logged 7 or 8 hours flying Class Bravo transitions before I take the V-3 test. Everything you told me was so valuable. I am long in the tooth so please let me rephrase what you said to make sure I got everything right. Correct me, please, if I am wrong. I will probably have a few questions thrown in the mix too.
1. I had no idea Los Angeles Center and SoCal were so far apart. Idiot that I am, since Los Angles Center was named Los Angeles, I thought maybe they and SoCal shared the same bathrooms. I am looking for a map showing all of the ATC players and the airspaces they control. If you know of one, please let me know.
a. That said, I see nothing wrong in asking Oakland Center or even Santa Barbara Approach for flight following to John Wayne. But getting into the dirt about how I want to transition LA Class Bravo is jumping the gun. Do you agree?
b. Is it always better to talk to the agency that controls the airspace you wish to enter instead of a distant 3rd party (i.e. Santa Barbara Approach)? I feel now that I should wait until I am handed off to SoCal approach.
2. I too thought that LA Center terminated flight following because of communication problems. And that was great! Sometimes that happens in real life and you have to live with it. But assuming that no communications problems existed, could I take it to the bank that LA Center would eventually hand me off to SoCal?
3. I now understand that asking for clearance too soon is a waste of the controller’s time. My questions is how much time/distance ahead of Class Bravo should I call with my story and expect to get a clearance before I penetrate the airspace?
4. Oh – you are spot on about NORCAL and Oakland Center being neighbors. In fact, Oakland Center’s southern boundary touches the NorCal northern boundary.
You have really helped me with this. I will fly the route again this weekend and see if I can avoid the mistakes I made this time. But your message to me was a treasure trove of valuable information and I thank you for taking the time and helping me learn.
Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond – especially listening to the tapes. That actually was a long flight. This is the reason I like to mix things up a lot before I take any test – I put myself in a variety of scenarios where I really goof up and learn so much. I probably will have logged 7 or 8 hours flying Class Bravo transitions before I take the V-3 test. Everything you told me was so valuable. I am long in the tooth so please let me rephrase what you said to make sure I got everything right. Correct me, please, if I am wrong. I will probably have a few questions thrown in the mix too.
1. I had no idea Los Angeles Center and SoCal were so far apart. Idiot that I am, since Los Angles Center was named Los Angeles, I thought maybe they and SoCal shared the same bathrooms. I am looking for a map showing all of the ATC players and the airspaces they control. If you know of one, please let me know.
a. That said, I see nothing wrong in asking Oakland Center or even Santa Barbara Approach for flight following to John Wayne. But getting into the dirt about how I want to transition LA Class Bravo is jumping the gun. Do you agree?
b. Is it always better to talk to the agency that controls the airspace you wish to enter instead of a distant 3rd party (i.e. Santa Barbara Approach)? I feel now that I should wait until I am handed off to SoCal approach.
2. I too thought that LA Center terminated flight following because of communication problems. And that was great! Sometimes that happens in real life and you have to live with it. But assuming that no communications problems existed, could I take it to the bank that LA Center would eventually hand me off to SoCal?
3. I now understand that asking for clearance too soon is a waste of the controller’s time. My questions is how much time/distance ahead of Class Bravo should I call with my story and expect to get a clearance before I penetrate the airspace?
4. Oh – you are spot on about NORCAL and Oakland Center being neighbors. In fact, Oakland Center’s southern boundary touches the NorCal northern boundary.
You have really helped me with this. I will fly the route again this weekend and see if I can avoid the mistakes I made this time. But your message to me was a treasure trove of valuable information and I thank you for taking the time and helping me learn.
Re: Paso Robles KPRB to KSAN: LA Center vs Oakland Center
Yep just wait until you're about to encroach on the class B to ask... (within reason lol...don't wait till you're a mile away!)
PE ID: 29
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Jim DeWilder
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:28 pm
Re: Paso Robles KPRB to KSAN: LA Center vs Oakland Center
My thanks to everyone for their help. Because of that, and a little research on my own (which I should have done before this but did not know what questions to ask) I think I am on a little stronger footing. NorCal and SoCal are TRACONs and they are responsible for controlling Class B airspaces – among other things. ARTCC – Like Los Angeles and Oakland – are there to direct traffic once you are up and on your way. They cannot, and should not, act as gatekeepers for Class Bravo transitions. I should have known better. When I takeoff from my uncontrolled field, and want flight following, I talk to Oakland.
So on my next flight from Paso Robles, I will motor on until I am in the PilotEdge area – abeam San Luis Obispo – and then contact Los Angeles Center for flight following VFR to John Wayne. I will not call Santa Barbara Approach. I will save the Class Bravo transition stuff for when I am handled off to SoCal. That should do it and I will give it a try in the next few days.
Live and learn – but it would not be possible without the help from you all. Thank you.
So on my next flight from Paso Robles, I will motor on until I am in the PilotEdge area – abeam San Luis Obispo – and then contact Los Angeles Center for flight following VFR to John Wayne. I will not call Santa Barbara Approach. I will save the Class Bravo transition stuff for when I am handled off to SoCal. That should do it and I will give it a try in the next few days.
Live and learn – but it would not be possible without the help from you all. Thank you.
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TheMadDocMD
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:42 pm
Re: Paso Robles KPRB to KSAN: LA Center vs Oakland Center
Jim, no problem at all... Not all real world controllers are old cranky guys (however yes some are, trust me ). Usually we all try to help in whatever method we can to provide a service.
If you are a pilot real world I would really recommend talking to local controllers to visit their facility to learn more about local stuff to you, we have local pilots come in from time to time and usually it's a big eye opener for them
of what we are doing etc.
TRACON's (Anyone named "Approach") provide a terminal service (close to airport) coverage while centers mostly work the outlying areas and higher airspace - there are major consolidated TRACON's like NorCal and SoCal (lots of combined airspace over a large area) as well as others like Fresno TRACON and Las Vegas TRACON that provide services to their immediate area. Seems like you have done some research into these type of controllers compared to a Center. Centers (also known as ARTCC's) can do their fair share of controlling down the the ground like near CA51 - Redding(RDD) - Laughlin (IFP) for example as well so it's usually a good practice to look at a approach plate for the area you are going to and see who the approach control services are actually through as well if you are ever wondering.
In Real World... LA Center building is located in Palmdale,CA and SoCal Approach is in San Diego,CA
A) agree - ask for flight following to a destination from anyone just state your destination
B) agree - unless you feel for safety of flight reasons you need to make that request right then and there; wait until you are talking to the controlling facility of the airspace/request
2. Yes as long as radar/radio coverage is good and the next sector's takes a handoff (they could be too busy to accept for example) then yes the controllers should keep handing you off to each sector/facility as you transit their airspace all the way to destination. Personally I have had to terminate flight following because of radar limitations (pilot was too low for next facility radar to see them) but I would provide them a frequency to try in a few miles - or if I had to terminate because Center was too busy to handle (had that too) usually I still give them the frequency so they can monitor if they want to see if it slows down.
3. Like I said above, try to wait until controlling facility unless you feel you need to state the request for safety or fear of busting airspace etc...like Ryan said - just don't wait until you are a mile from the airspace - give yourself enough room to safely avoid if needed.
Lastly, if you takeoff from an uncontrolled airport and try contacting ATC, usually if you give a good call up (call sign, type, position as close as possible, alititude and request) the ATC can quickly scan for you (or ask you to ident) thus finding you and If you are in someone else's airspace they can help direct you to the proper controller frequency. I expierence a lot pilots calling me saying "Approach, N12345, piper archer requesting flight following to ABC airport" but when I respond back to them saying "Ident and say altitude" or "Say position" I will find they are 20 miles outside my airspace but I can direct them to the proper people.
I again probably went way more than you needed but that's what happens when I get started . These are only my personal suggestions so don't take it to the bank - hence my disclaimer earlier .
Best of luck on your next flight!
). Usually we all try to help in whatever method we can to provide a service.If you are a pilot real world I would really recommend talking to local controllers to visit their facility to learn more about local stuff to you, we have local pilots come in from time to time and usually it's a big eye opener for them
of what we are doing etc.TRACON's (Anyone named "Approach") provide a terminal service (close to airport) coverage while centers mostly work the outlying areas and higher airspace - there are major consolidated TRACON's like NorCal and SoCal (lots of combined airspace over a large area) as well as others like Fresno TRACON and Las Vegas TRACON that provide services to their immediate area. Seems like you have done some research into these type of controllers compared to a Center. Centers (also known as ARTCC's) can do their fair share of controlling down the the ground like near CA51 - Redding(RDD) - Laughlin (IFP) for example as well so it's usually a good practice to look at a approach plate for the area you are going to and see who the approach control services are actually through as well if you are ever wondering.
In Real World... LA Center building is located in Palmdale,CA and SoCal Approach is in San Diego,CA
A) agree - ask for flight following to a destination from anyone just state your destination
B) agree - unless you feel for safety of flight reasons you need to make that request right then and there; wait until you are talking to the controlling facility of the airspace/request
2. Yes as long as radar/radio coverage is good and the next sector's takes a handoff (they could be too busy to accept for example) then yes the controllers should keep handing you off to each sector/facility as you transit their airspace all the way to destination. Personally I have had to terminate flight following because of radar limitations (pilot was too low for next facility radar to see them) but I would provide them a frequency to try in a few miles - or if I had to terminate because Center was too busy to handle (had that too) usually I still give them the frequency so they can monitor if they want to see if it slows down.
3. Like I said above, try to wait until controlling facility unless you feel you need to state the request for safety or fear of busting airspace etc...like Ryan said - just don't wait until you are a mile from the airspace - give yourself enough room to safely avoid if needed.
Lastly, if you takeoff from an uncontrolled airport and try contacting ATC, usually if you give a good call up (call sign, type, position as close as possible, alititude and request) the ATC can quickly scan for you (or ask you to ident) thus finding you and If you are in someone else's airspace they can help direct you to the proper controller frequency. I expierence a lot pilots calling me saying "Approach, N12345, piper archer requesting flight following to ABC airport" but when I respond back to them saying "Ident and say altitude" or "Say position" I will find they are 20 miles outside my airspace but I can direct them to the proper people.
I again probably went way more than you needed
but that's what happens when I get started . These are only my personal suggestions so don't take it to the bank - hence my disclaimer earlier .Best of luck on your next flight!
MD
Real World Controller
FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate - Sacramento, CA
FAA Certificated Aircraft Dispatcher
Real World Controller
FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate - Sacramento, CA
FAA Certificated Aircraft Dispatcher
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Jim DeWilder
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:28 pm
Re: Paso Robles KPRB to KSAN: LA Center vs Oakland Center
Thanks to you and Ryan once again for the your valuable advice. I am a pilot and, coincidentally, will be heading to NorCal at Mather for a tour next week. I am really excited to see how you magicians work your magic. Thanks again to you both. I will let you know how my next flight turns out. Hopefully, I will do better.