Hi all,
Today I filed IFR SNA to LAS. I was cleared Musel8 DAG CLARR2
After departure I was cleared direct DAG and climbed to FL270.
About 60 from DAG I was cleared to cross DAG at FL240. After DAG I was cleared to cross CLARR at 13,000 and 250kts.
I was planning to ask L.A. Center if I could have the 250 restriction amended to 300. At the time the controller was busy. So I waited.
About 25 miles from CLARR, I made my call.
No response.
I could hear him, but he couldn’t hear me.
I called again.
Nothing. Again, I could hear Chase just fine. I tried again, but no luck.
I thought I had a for real radio kaboom, (or maybe he was just playin' with me...) so I squawked 7600.
So here’s my question: (I’m not VMC.)
How would you get to Vegas?
The CLARR is not Descend Via, nor does it have published altitudes for the various segments. Therefore, I remained on my last clearance, (13,000/250kts,) and intercepted BLD R-260 to BLD.
Then I entered the published hold over BLD from the Rwy 25L missed approach procedure. While in the hold, I descended to 7,000 as per the missed approach, (knowing full well that I had obstacle clearance.)
But here’s where I get foggy.
How do I get from the hold to the localizer? There’s no feeder from the hold to either CROWE or PRINO, (the IAF’s.)
So, I remained at 7,000, departed the hold on the BLD 040 to PRINO, course reversed back to the localizer, and when I had needle movement for the intercept, (again, guaranteed obstacle clearance,) I began descending for the approach.
At various points from SKEBR, ISSAR, BLD, PRINO, etc., I dialed the appropriate frequencies all the way to LAS tower, and even ground. I exited the runway at A8 and shut down on the taxiway.
I suppose I could have climbed to MEA and depart BLD V21 to V562 and then intercepted the localizer over CROWE. Not too sure though. What should I have done?
Parenthetically, Chase said there was an interrupt with the server, so I was disconnected. A big lol on my part because I thought I was still online.
NORDO
-
Keith Smith
- Posts: 9943
- Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:38 pm
- Location: Pompton Plains, NJ
- Contact:
Re: NORDO
If it's not VMC in Vegas, I'd probably prepare for the 3 horsemen....but aside from that, my first choice would be to shoot the VOR RWY 25L from BLD since it's an approach that can be flown entirely from BLD. The ILS, as you pointed out, is not flyable from BLD.
I'd probably execute the missed app hold at BLD, not only to descend out of 13k, but as a way to become more aligned with the initial approach segment at BLD.
I'd probably execute the missed app hold at BLD, not only to descend out of 13k, but as a way to become more aligned with the initial approach segment at BLD.
Re: NORDO
Sounds like a fun flight!
a few other points and options:
- you should fly unpublished routes using the OROCA (Off Route Obstacle Clearance Altitude) until established on a published segment. Once within the localizer, you can descend to 8000 until established inbound.
- The FAA could peg you for holding over BLD (if there is liability to be assigned, they will!)...you're clearance limit was KLAS. If you intend to hold somewhere, I would suggest doing it at the clearance limit to avoid liability for any mishaps. You technically need an amended clearance to hold anywhere else.
- Remember, your final route segment is always direct to the clearance limit, even on a STAR. You can legally vector yourself to the clearance limit and start an approach from there using the OROCA or a planned altitude of your discretion that meets all minimum IFR altitude requirements.
- The Final and Missed Approach altitudes cannot be used unless actually flying the approach/missed.
Some people suggest that you can fly from the last fix prior to the clearance limit to the end of the approach; it's not technically correct but seems to be commonly accepted practice. This is what you did when you proceeded direct to PRINO. If you do that, be sure to use the OROCA or MIA for all unpublished segments. Turn to PRINO at BLD, then descend to 10300, then, once within the LOC outbound, you could descend to 8000 (IAF altitude) until established inbound.
Your options are...
- after CLARR, decend at PD to OROCA, then...
1) from BLD, VOR 25L/R approach, missed hold to descend to 9700, then fly the approach from BLD. (Keith's choice... the easiest of all, but you can't legally use the missed approach altitude for the hold. The OROCA for that hold is 9700.)
1b) from BLD, proceed to IRISH at OROCA, then descend in the published hold.
2) from BLD, any route to KLAS at or above OROCA (10300 over BLD-LAS) , then outbound to join the approach to be flown at or above the IAF altitude until fully established inbound. In this case that would be 8000 until inbound at PRINO. (the more commonly encountered scenario.)
3) from BLD, V105.LAS at or above higher of the V105 MEA (6000) or the IAF altitude for the approach to be flown (8000 for ILS 25L), then join intended approach outbound.
4) from BLD, use the VOR 25L approach to get to LAS, at or above higher of the published altitude prior to the FAF (4500 for VOR25L) or the IAF altitude for the approach to be flown (8000 for ILS 25L), then at LAS join intended approach outbound. You can use the inbound altitudes until the FAF altitude as a published route if you are not intending to fly the approach, and the IAF altitude for outbound as a published route where an outbound altitude is not depicted.
5) from BLD, using an FAA sectional or approach chart with terrain altitude depicted, remain at or above the highest obstacle depicted within 10 miles of your anticipated flight path, plus two thousand feet, rounded up to the nearest IFR altitude for direction of flight. (5445+2000=7445 rounded up to 8000 from BLD..LAS and 9000 from LAS..PRINO)
Here's something cool I've used when practicing: https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/c ... raphic.pdf
And never go below the MSA or IAF altitude, unless you're established on the approach inbound!
a few other points and options:
- you should fly unpublished routes using the OROCA (Off Route Obstacle Clearance Altitude) until established on a published segment. Once within the localizer, you can descend to 8000 until established inbound.
- The FAA could peg you for holding over BLD (if there is liability to be assigned, they will!)...you're clearance limit was KLAS. If you intend to hold somewhere, I would suggest doing it at the clearance limit to avoid liability for any mishaps. You technically need an amended clearance to hold anywhere else.
- Remember, your final route segment is always direct to the clearance limit, even on a STAR. You can legally vector yourself to the clearance limit and start an approach from there using the OROCA or a planned altitude of your discretion that meets all minimum IFR altitude requirements.
- The Final and Missed Approach altitudes cannot be used unless actually flying the approach/missed.
Some people suggest that you can fly from the last fix prior to the clearance limit to the end of the approach; it's not technically correct but seems to be commonly accepted practice. This is what you did when you proceeded direct to PRINO. If you do that, be sure to use the OROCA or MIA for all unpublished segments. Turn to PRINO at BLD, then descend to 10300, then, once within the LOC outbound, you could descend to 8000 (IAF altitude) until established inbound.
Your options are...
- after CLARR, decend at PD to OROCA, then...
1) from BLD, VOR 25L/R approach, missed hold to descend to 9700, then fly the approach from BLD. (Keith's choice... the easiest of all, but you can't legally use the missed approach altitude for the hold. The OROCA for that hold is 9700.)
1b) from BLD, proceed to IRISH at OROCA, then descend in the published hold.
2) from BLD, any route to KLAS at or above OROCA (10300 over BLD-LAS) , then outbound to join the approach to be flown at or above the IAF altitude until fully established inbound. In this case that would be 8000 until inbound at PRINO. (the more commonly encountered scenario.)
3) from BLD, V105.LAS at or above higher of the V105 MEA (6000) or the IAF altitude for the approach to be flown (8000 for ILS 25L), then join intended approach outbound.
4) from BLD, use the VOR 25L approach to get to LAS, at or above higher of the published altitude prior to the FAF (4500 for VOR25L) or the IAF altitude for the approach to be flown (8000 for ILS 25L), then at LAS join intended approach outbound. You can use the inbound altitudes until the FAF altitude as a published route if you are not intending to fly the approach, and the IAF altitude for outbound as a published route where an outbound altitude is not depicted.
5) from BLD, using an FAA sectional or approach chart with terrain altitude depicted, remain at or above the highest obstacle depicted within 10 miles of your anticipated flight path, plus two thousand feet, rounded up to the nearest IFR altitude for direction of flight. (5445+2000=7445 rounded up to 8000 from BLD..LAS and 9000 from LAS..PRINO)
Here's something cool I've used when practicing: https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/c ... raphic.pdf
And never go below the MSA or IAF altitude, unless you're established on the approach inbound!