Clearance for ILS approach

[OleB]

Hello,

I'm still quite new to PilotEdge, started by watching a lot of workshops and am now working on the different ratings. Really surprising how much flying online on PilotEdge is different to just flying. There's so much distraction from actually flying the plane

I probably should be able to answer the following question myself after watching Keith's videos, but my brain already removed the information and I can't find it easily in the videos anymore.

My question is related to my approach, which was not really good, I have to admit that. After reaching LAX I got a heading and clearance for the ILS RW8 approach. For some reason, I didn't start descending but remained at 6000ft, my assigned altitude. At one point the controller asked me if I was already descending, vectored me around and told me to descend to 4000ft.
After having thought about that a bit more, I'm still confused. I got vectors and the charts define altitudes at certain points. Can I assume that I'm vectored to the IAF and can descend to the defined altitude on my own discretion? In case of ILS RW8 at KBUR it would be SILEX at 3700ft, but actually 3700ft after "returning" from the procedure turn, which I don't fly when getting vectored.

The question may sound extremely stupid, but this is really the hardest part for me at the moment: what is implicitely included in ATC messages and where do I have to wait (or ask) for a new order. I think in I-1 and -2 I didn't get vectors only but also a new altitude. Which was probably the case for my I-3 as well and I just missed that bit.... I think I was mainly a bit too tired for flying online

What I want to point out is that I'm not looking for "controller did it wrong" or something like that. The controller was really patient, repeated a lot of things because I didn't catch the information the first time and I was actually even surprised that I passed the rating.

Thanks for your help,
Ole

[kleistad]

Usually the clearence would be something like "N123AA,4 miles from "some fix", turn left heading xxx maintain 4000ft until established on the localizer, cleared ILS rwy 24 approach". When you`re established on the localizer you can descend to the minimum altitude for the fix your outside of. I think the controller have to give you an intercept altitude, but not a 100% sure. If I didn`t get one, and I thought I was too high before entering the loc, I would ask the controller. Maybe her/he forgot, or you missed it.

When you are cleared for the approach, you are free to descend via the approach. Respecting all restrictions of the approach. If you`re cleared for a visual approach, descent is at your discretion.

I recommend watching the workshop videos. Approaches is by far the subject the workshop use the most it time on. And it`s VERY interesting
I first watched them two years ago, and have watched a number of them several times since that. And I learn something new almost every time.

I am not a controller, so hope someone can confirm my statement or correct me

[Keith Smith]

Your post is a little hard to follow, but I'll take a crack at it.

There are two method by which an approach can be flown:
1) vectors to the final approach course, or
2) from a feeder, IAF, or IF.

In EITHER case, if you're operating on a random route (ie, not on an airway, SID/STAR), then ATC must provide an altitude to maintain until being on established on a published route or a segment of the approach. If you're being vectored to final, then you are definitely on a random route, so you will always be given an altitude to maintain until established on a segment of the approach.

On a side note, if you were doing the I-3 rating then be sure to request 'vectors to final' for the ILS RWY 8 approach at BUR. This will avoid the rare case where you might be cleared for the full approach from LAX, which involves the procedure turn at SILEX.

To answer what I think was your specific question, once cleared for the approach and established on a segment of the approach, you may descend to the altitudes published on the approach. So, let's assume you were on a published airway to LAX VOR. The controller can say "cleared ILS RWY 8 approach" without ANY altitude constraints, because you are already established on a published route (the airway) and your route of flight takes you over the feeder fix (LAX) from which you can commence the approach. In that case, you could descend from your present altitude to the MEA for the airway until LAX, and then as published from that point on.

A slight variant would be if you were direct LAX (ie, not on an airway). In that case, the controller MUST supply an altitude to maintain until established on a published route or segment of the approach. An example would be "cross LAX at or above 5000, cleared ILS RWY 8 approach." You could descend from your present altitude to as low as 5k until LAX, and then descend as published after that.

[Keith Smith]

kleistad, your statement is true only if you're being vectored to the final approach course. The pilot stated he was cleared for the approach at (or after, I can't quite tell which) LAX without any vectors. That's a different case.

[kleistad]

Ah, thanks for the clarification

[OleB]

Hello Keith,

Sorry for not being clear and thanks for your answer. That was exactly what my specific question was.
In this case, I definitely got vectors to final approach and most likely just missed the assigned altitude.

Thanks,
Ole