VFR Departure From KVNY And Dealing With KBUR Class C

[Mark Hargrove]

So help me out here. Class C airspace requires that you "establish and maintain" communications with ATC. If you're one minute from a Class C boundary, and call "SoCal approach, Cessna 757SM, at <some position>, level 3000, VFR request", and they say "Cessna 757SM, SoCall approach ..." you have, technically, established communication. If you penetrate the Charlie 10 seconds later, you're legal -- right? (I'm not in anyway advocating something so boneheaded -- I'm just trying to understand the rules).

If that's right, I kind of don't get it. The next words out of the controllers mouth might be "remain clear of the Charlie" -- but it's too late -- you're *in* the Charlie at that point. What would happen? Would you reverse course and high-tail it back out?

-M.

[julio.elizalde]

Yes, as soon as ATC repeats the calling aircrafts callsign, the requirements for Class C entrance have been fulfilled, that is unless they tell you to stay out or have some odd restriction for how they need you to transition the airspace.

Hopefully you wouldn't be on course towards the Class C while operating under the assumption that you'll be allowed in. I think it's best to fly a little more cautiously, assume that it will be busy and that they'll ask you to remain outside. This way you avoid having a heart attack if your assumptions turn out to be wrong. If you happen to bust airspace, I'd say the best thing is to just tell the controller. If they're handling traffic around you, they can shuffle them accordingly and can give you a safe exit strategy from the airspace. Sharing information in situations like that only makes things better for everyone.

[Keith Smith]

Mark,

If you're a minute from the lateral boundary of Class C airspace (2 miles in a typical piston single) and you're just now starting a call to Socal, something went awry with the flight. Still, if you are able to establish contact in time, and you give your approx position and the controller says, "Cessna 757SM, Socal Approach, standby..." then yes, you can enter. As we said in the workshops, the controller KNOWS that by saying that, he's letting you in. Either his airspace is a desolate wasteland and even if your position is wrong, he might not care...OR, he has reason to think the blip at the reported location and altitude is you, but he hasn't got time to give you a squawk before he gives the Learj 25 a final vector onto the ILS RWY 8 into Burbank.

If he was unsure of your location, OR he was swamped, OR didn't want you to enter the airspace for any reason, he would've either responded with "Aircraft calling, standby," "or [callsign], remain outside of Charlie Airspace, I'll call you back."

Your understanding of the rules is accurate. The chances of the last situation you described (controller responding, but telling you to remain clear, but now it's too late), are slim enough to be considered a non-issue. I guess you could technically say "unable, already in the airspace, but we'll start a turn/descent to exit the Charlie." You're talking about split second timing for it to happen that way, in addition to a very late initial call from the pilot.

I absolutely see what boundary you're trying to establish with the question, and how it's somewhat illogical that a gate could open and close so quickly, but I think the specific premise is so unlikely that it's not worth worrying about because it requires such a long list of conditions (the perfect storm again).

[bruce]

(any ATC, especially since you had flight following)

I don't quite understand the " especially since you had flight following" bit.
My understanding is that Flt Following simply gives you info on conflicting traffic allowing you to then take avoiding action as you deem necessary.
By virtue of the fact that you will have a unique squawk code it does also allow a controller to id you should you stray near controlled airspace, making it easier to slap the correct hand, but it's purpose is not to navigate you round B's or C's. It is just a Traffic Service

[Pieces]

If you have flight following though, you're going to be handed off to the next controller in line. So in the example here, VNY tower has indicated to SOCAL through the data block that this plane is going to be coming through here, and you should expect him/her to check on. That is why you can call SOCAL and say "Cessna 128AB, 3000 climbing 4500" instead of an entire check in.

Based on the FARs and the discussion here I understand why that doesn't fulfill the requirements for entering the airspace. I could also see that the expectation that you're coming and the background communication that ATC is doing (even if its just through the computer) creates and expectation that you're going to enter the airspace.

Without flight following, the way I understand it, SOCAL would not necessarily be expecting you to check in. Just a poor assumption on my part.

[Ryan Geckler]

If you have flight following though, you're going to be handed off to the next controller in line. So in the example here, VNY tower has indicated to SOCAL through the data block that this plane is going to be coming through here, and you should expect him/her to check on. That is why you can call SOCAL and say "Cessna 128AB, 3000 climbing 4500" instead of an entire check in.

Correct. It's been coordinated through SCT (who owns the upper shelves of the BUR C) that you will be coming out, so they know you are coming.

Based on the FARs and the discussion here I understand why that doesn't fulfill the requirements for entering the airspace. I could also see that the expectation that you're coming and the background communication that ATC is doing (even if its just through the computer) creates and expectation that you're going to enter the airspace.

That does meet the requirements. I think the confusion in this thread was created when the aircraft departed VNY with no FF, and then busted through the BUR C without being in contact with SCT. We won't coordinate transitions if you aren't going to take flight following or you didn't indicate you wanted the transition.

[Pieces]

OP stated he was leaving VNY with flight following, and his check in with SOCAL (via the web recording, linked earlier) indicates that he did have flight following and was expected to check in with SOCAL.

Sounds like we have some confusion here.

[Keith Smith]

The OP had coordinated flight following with VNY gnd/twr. He had not yet established communication with Socal when he entered the Class C, though, hence the issue.

[Ryan Geckler]

The OP had coordinated flight following with VNY gnd/twr. He had not yet established communication with Socal when he entered the Class C, though, hence the issue.

That's it.

[Mark Hargrove]

I would (hopefully!) never be so boneheaded as to wait until I was 60 seconds away from a Charlie boundary before calling. As Keith correctly supposed, I was just trying to understand the "boundary conditions" of the rules.

The responses are what I was hoping I'd read (which means my understanding was essentially correct), and that's always a good thing!

-M.